Simplifying Wedding Photography Workflows with Michael Anthony

[00:00:00] Michael Anthony: Obviously we have lighting equipment for that. But talking about location based shooting, I really use a three foot pro photo, Octa box and a grid that attaches to it. [00:00:08] Michael Anthony: And then I use the grids that go on the normal A two. So think like either a magma grid or if you're using ProPhoto, the little click grids. those are really the only tools that I use and, and sometimes a reflector as well, a hard reflector to increase the output of the light. I. but those are really the only things that I use to control. [00:00:24] Michael Anthony: The light grids are obviously gonna be the biggest thing, but then you can, you have tools like feathering the light and stuff like that in order to control where it goes. but you know, just try to keep it simple because, you know, obviously we're carrying this equipment around with this and, you know, I don't want to carry a wagon around every shoot that I go to. [00:00:39] Michael Anthony: I just don't like carrying a lot of [00:00:41] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, yeah, I don't blame you. I don't blame you. Alright, so, so now let's, let's move into the business side of things. And. Eventually, we're going to get to Imagen, so you don't have to talk about Imagen with this question, but what is one thing that you do for the business that saves you either time or money?[00:01:00] [00:01:00] Michael Anthony: I definitely have to talk about Imagine, because that's gonna be [00:01:03] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: We'll get to it, we'll get to it, we'll get to it, we'll [00:01:05] Michael Anthony: I know. We'll get to time saving timer money, you know. I, I try to limit the amount of things that, that I'm doing in my own business that are taking time away from the marketing, right? So Editing is obviously gonna be the big one, that that's the thing that everybody is gonna, is gonna spend the majority of, of time on. [00:01:19] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Michael Anthony Photography is a Los Angeles based wedding photography studio that was started in 2011 by Michael and his wife, Jennifer. [00:01:28] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Their work is best known for its colorful, contemporary, cinematic style of portraiture. Michael Anthony is a very well known photographer , all around the world, teaching lighting, and, and posing, and portraits, and even editing, and a variety of different business topics, and I'm very excited to wrap up Season 2 with Michael Anthony, so let's just get right into it, shall we? I am wrapping up season two. We're wrapping up season two. That is [00:02:00] crazy to think, but we're wrapping up season two. With Michael Anthony. What's up? [00:02:05] Michael Anthony: How. [00:02:06] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I am doing well. I just got back from my kids elementary school. Both of my kids are now in the same school, which is great. And they had what we, what our school, what their school, not my school, but what their school calls a turkey trot. [00:02:21] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It's basically a, a fun run for all the kids to do. It's also a PTO fundraising activity as well. And the kids are supposed to run a half mile, it's one loop around this obstacle course, and parents are allowed to do it with their kids, and of course, both my kids wanted me to do it with them so this morning, uh, my daughter decided to do two laps, so I ran a mile with her, and then ten minutes, I had a ten minute break before my son's class came out, and he wanted to do four laps, And I could only last, I mean, after doing a mile with my daughter, and this is [00:03:00] up and down hills, mind you. [00:03:01] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: After doing a mile with my daughter, I could only last for three laps with my son. I was done. So I did two [00:03:07] Michael Anthony: Dude, I can only imagine. [00:03:09] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Oh. [00:03:10] Michael Anthony: yeah. I'm not much of a runner. [00:03:11] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Yeah. oh man, I've got a knee brace to wear if I have to run, like, I feel old when I do it, [00:03:20] Michael Anthony: I'm, I'm right there with you. I need, I need braces on every joint. Whenever I exercise, it's the only way I could get through it, [00:03:26] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: oh yeah, oh yeah, so, I am like physically, so I do karate classes as well, and last night I did a hard karate class, So like, I am just beat today. My whole body is just, I'm done for the day. [00:03:40] Michael Anthony: That's cool. So what level belt are you in? Karate. [00:03:44] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, so I train in Goju Ryu, which is a traditional a traditional form of karate, and I am a brown belt with one stripe I have one more stripe to go, and then I can test for black. [00:03:55] Michael Anthony: That's awesome. Congratulations. That's no easy feat. I know that I don't, I don't know much about karate, [00:04:00] but I know in martial arts, but I know that, that it takes a long time to get to that level. [00:04:04] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: know what? As much as, like, we as photographers were impacted from the pandemic with our businesses in various ways, um, my karate training got Impacted three times during my six, five, six years pandemic, screw that up too. Of getting my black belt. I could have done it in three if I, you know, if I had trained as hard as I was, but like, I had an emergency appendectomy when the pandemic started. [00:04:33] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So, even though, um uh, everything went virtual we did everything through zooms and stuff I had a take was six weeks off for that and then and and then the pandemic itself. So that, you know, puts you back itself, right? So there's two years gone of like, I can't train hard with other people. And then the append, the surgeon who did my appendectomy left me with an incisional hernia. [00:04:59] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So I [00:05:00] just got that fixed a few months ago. I was out for another six weeks, so, [00:05:05] Michael Anthony: Surgery's not fun. [00:05:06] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, [00:05:07] Michael Anthony: I'm glad you're. [00:05:08] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, yeah. Thanks. yeah but yeah, so, so, you know, it's training and, and, and and doing, I, I talk about this often, as often as I can, but like all what I have to go through and what I have to mentally prepare myself, it helps me with everything else in life. [00:05:24] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: And it helps me with work and it helps me with, you know, doing all the photography stuff and helps me run two and a half miles with my kids, so, with that let's, let's, let's dive into the, to the, to the first question I have for you, which is, [00:05:40] What is one thing that you do for the photographic process that has saved you time?[00:05:40] / --- [00:05:40] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: what is one thing that you do during the photographic process behind the camera that has saved you time? [00:05:49] Michael Anthony: Yeah, so I'm always considering what the final product is. I think that that's the most important thing. I, I started outsourcing my Editing at an early age, early. Part of my career, [00:06:00] not an early age, but early part of my career, right? So I knew, back when I was doing that, that I wasn't gonna have time to go through and make a ton of local Adjustments on all of the Imageners. [00:06:09] Michael Anthony: So I really got into, understanding light and how it affects my ImagenAI's. and I started trying to get that final look in camera. So that's how I started using off-camera lighting. That's how I started, you know, using more dramatic lighting in my Imageners. And, and by doing that. I was able to rely a little bit less on things like the, you know, adjustment brushes and the gradients and stuff like that. and it helps save me time in the final edit because I can get to that final product without having to do all those local Adjustments, which is what I think takes up the most amount of time in the Editing process. [00:06:40] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So, that's, yeah, yeah, I, I am not a big fan of doing too many local adjustments myself. It's interesting, I was, I was helping a friend at one of his workshops, and he talked about, and demonstrated how, how many gradials he uses when he does his editing. And like, [00:07:00] we know, once you, once you do that, Lightroom's like, performance goes from here to here, drops, [00:07:05] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: right? [00:07:06] Michael Anthony: it takes a lot longer to get to. [00:07:08] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, and the interesting thing is, though, like, I tried it because I was curious how it, and it does make a huge impact, but at the same time it, you know, it definitely can slow things down, so I, I think, like, if I know that I want to take time with a, with a specific portrait to add in all these, like, sort of dodging and burning, I would want to try to get it in camera so I don't have to do it in post. [00:07:34] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right, [00:07:35] Michael Anthony: and there's definitely ways to do it. You do do it using your lighting, you know, your composition even. There's a lot of ways you can do it, without having to rely on. On those tools and, you know, don't get me wrong, there are definitely cases, especially when you're photographing weddings and you don't have control over everything where, where those tools are warranted. [00:07:53] Michael Anthony: But when I'm photographing portraits and when I have control over the situation, I try to do everything I can do in camera, even like cropping [00:08:00] and stuff like that. I try to try to do it in camera just because. yoU know, that Editing process and like, you know, I, I hate to say it, but this is a business first, right? [00:08:07] Michael Anthony: It's, it's not our first, right? I have to make sure that, you know, we're able to get our product out the door to our clients in a reasonable amount of time. And if we're doing those things, it's taking too much time on the Editing process. we're actually doing a disservice to our clients, right? [00:08:20] Michael Anthony: So I wanna make sure. That our business is operating efficiently. And, and another thing about local edits, a lot of times those things are subjective, right? So it's not something you can necessarily train an editor to do and get it to look the way that you would want it to look. so I try to avoid those things in the process of, you know, creating the final gallery for our clients. [00:08:40] Michael Anthony: In fact, we, we don't use any of those things in, In the final deliverables only in things like our signature edits, which is a product we do for the Walmart for our clients. Do we get into Photoshop and do a lot of heavy Editing on those Imageners, but the general gallery, we don't do any local Adjustments. [00:08:56] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: awesome, awesome wow, wow, I was gonna [00:09:00] ask you something, I totally forgot what it was, oh if you were to do something like trying to do, let's say, let's say dodging and burning, right, with lighting, Are you a gobo, like the black screen type of person, or are you a, let me take the umbrella and just flip it, flip it, like what, what's your, what would be your method to to do something like, like controlling the light spill and, and, and whatnot? [00:09:22] Michael Anthony: Yeah, so I really use the two tools on, on a given shoot, and I'm gonna call it a wedding 'cause that's the majority of what I sh, I mean, I do a lot of portraits in the studio. Obviously we have lighting equipment for that. But talking about location based shooting, I really use a three foot pro photo, Octa box and a grid that attaches to it. [00:09:38] Michael Anthony: And then I use the grids that go on the normal A two. So think like either a magma grid or if you're using ProPhoto, the little click grids. those are really the only tools that I use and, and sometimes a reflector as well, a hard reflector to increase the output of the light. I. but those are really the only things that I use to control. [00:09:54] Michael Anthony: The light grids are obviously gonna be the biggest thing, but then you can, you have tools like feathering the light and stuff like that in order to control where it goes. [00:10:00] but you know, just try to keep it simple because, you know, obviously we're carrying this equipment around with this and, you know, I don't want to carry a wagon around every shoot that I go to. [00:10:09] Michael Anthony: I just don't like carrying a lot of [00:10:11] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, yeah, I don't blame you. I don't blame you. Alright, so, so now let's, let's move into the business side of things. And. Eventually, we're going to get to Imagen, so you don't have to talk about Imagen with this question, but [00:10:22] What is one thing that you do for the business that saves you time or money? --- [00:10:22] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: what is one thing that you do for the business that saves you either time or money? [00:10:30] Michael Anthony: I definitely have to talk about Imagine, because that's gonna be [00:10:33] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: We'll get to it, We'll get to it, we'll get to it, [00:10:34] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: we'll [00:10:35] Michael Anthony: I know. We'll get [00:10:35] Michael Anthony: to time saving timer money, you know. I, I try to limit the amount of things that, that I'm doing in my own business that are taking time away from the marketing, right? So Editing is obviously gonna be the big one, that that's the thing that everybody is gonna, is gonna spend the majority of, of time on. but, you know, as far as like time or money goes, I try to again, outsource tools that, or outsource, things that in my own workflow that I don't like doing. So again, a [00:11:00] good, a good example of that would be Editing. I've even, developed processes for training our associate photographers and recruiting them. [00:11:06] Michael Anthony: That takes a lot of time, timelines. Another thing as a wedding photographer that takes a ton of time doing timelines. It's another thing that I've, I've outsourced as well. So, you know, in my own business, I believe in utilizing a team of people in order to, in order to make sure that, you know, we are operating as most efficient in the things that we're the best at. [00:11:25] Michael Anthony: And for me, things that we like doing, should I say, and for me, that's marketing in my own business. [00:11:29] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: you outsourcing album creation? [00:11:32] Michael Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. So our album designs are outsourced, and, and obviously we don't do the printing ourselves. so you know that that's outsources. Well, we order those from a lab. [00:11:40] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Awesome. And, and sending to gallery, is that something that you're doing as, as the business owner, or is that something you're also delegating to actually somebody to, to organize and, and get the gallery, you know, on your, on whatever gallery platform you're using and off to the, to the client. [00:11:56] Michael Anthony: Yeah, so we have a, a full-time studio manager and, client after [00:12:00] we do the wedding, they come in for what we call a reveal session, where they see the photos. It's really an IPS session. they go through it, they decide on any album upgrades, any wall, any Editing upgrades. And then, once all that's finished, then my studio manager who did the sales session, really a salesperson, they upload the gallery and send it to the client. [00:12:18] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Cool. Now I have to bring this up because, and you and I were just talking right before we started recording. You know, this, the question I just asked you is, is something that has saved you time. And and, and, and money really. Right. But I want to bring up something where you're making money even in times where you physically or mentally can't work. [00:12:43] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right. So you recently lost your dog of many, many years. Right. Which to anybody who has ever owned a pet, that's, you know, you, you understand that that situation. And you took. Ok so we are [00:13:00] around the corner of the hour and a half. [00:13:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yes, [00:13:08] Michael Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I'm what my wife likes to describe as a workaholic. I don't really take many days off in my business, and it's because, you know, I love doing this, right, and I think anybody can, who's a photographer. Can, can relate to that. some people would say it is a good idea to take time away from the business. [00:13:23] Michael Anthony: And I do agree, to some extent. I just, you know, I work a lot, but, lost my dog last week. Like you, like you had mentioned. my best friend, honestly, like a child to me, we don't have kids, so my, my pets are like my kids. and when I woke up the next day, honestly devastated. It was very hard to go to work. [00:13:37] Michael Anthony: And, and I don't. I don't have, I, I've never had like grief like that. I've, I've, you know, never experienced loss like that, so it was very difficult for me to go to work. but thankfully we have a really good team. So my, my office manager, she's my salesperson, she's been working with us for nine years while back, showed her how to do, portrait sessions. 'cause that's the majority of what our. You know, our day-to-day is, is gonna be [00:14:00] photographic portraits in the studio. Showed her how to do those, trained her on how to do them. Also boudoir sessions, 'cause we do that as well too. she was able to pick up those studio sessions. and then we also have, you know, associate photographers. [00:14:11] Michael Anthony: Obviously there were a couple of weddings last week. I did, I did go and photograph those, the ones that I was contracted for. But, you know, even going back. You know, years back we developed a team of photographers in order to, you know, create more business opportunities for our business. And, and we've had, have a really good team. [00:14:28] Michael Anthony: They've been together with us for, you know, I think our newest photographer, lead photographer's been with us for like five years. So, you know, they're able to, to step up and take on some of these shoots. In fact, they're doing, the majority of them these days as far as weddings go. And I'm working a little bit more in the studio. [00:14:43] Michael Anthony: So, you know, as far as like lifestyle goes and work life balance, for me it's a little bit better if I'm photographing less on the wedding side and more in the studio. And, and that's kind of the, the business we've manifested and are still working toward. But, but it seems to be where we're headed. [00:15:00] [00:15:01] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: with others. Outsourcing the job because they work for you, but delegating and and taking some of that responsibility off your plate, especially at times where you just you mentally Had to take that break, right? So being able to take the pressure off you and give it to somebody who you trust. I think it's something that a lot of photographers should be considering. [00:15:28] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: But I think it was smart that you also recognized that you could cross train your, your studio manager to actually shoot the portrait sessions in the studio. And, and I think that was it's really good that you recognized that, that she, was it she you said? Yeah, so that, that's, so that she could handle it do the job and do it well to the point where you're. [00:15:50] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: You're satisfied with the work, right? So, you know, huge kudos for recognizing that and for giving her the opportunity to, to do it. That's, it's huge, right? [00:15:58] Michael Anthony: I think a lot of [00:16:00] photographers worry about the creative process a little too much. Right? And we, we tend to get involved in it, and we want to have control over all of that. and that's good, and I think you should to an extent because you're technically the creative director, right? So even if you're having people photograph for you, you obviously want to have you know, a close eye on what they're doing and a, and a good hand in their training. [00:16:20] Michael Anthony: But, I think it's important to note that as a business owner, if we try to do everything ourselves at some point that avalanche is gonna come down on us, right? There's just too many things that, that, that go into running a business. That can really affect, you know, our, our mental stability and, and even just our ability to, to run the business, right? [00:16:39] Michael Anthony: So, handing things off, you know, I got some good advice a long time ago. and that's, you know, make a list of all the things in your business that have to be done, whether it's bookkeeping, whether it's, you know, even something as simple as like cleaning the studio, right? And cross off the things that you just hate doing in your business, right? [00:16:56] Michael Anthony: Those should be the first things that you look to outsource. And the things that you love [00:17:00] doing, marketing, shooting, things like that, those should be the last things that you outsource, if at all. And, and it really kind of opened my eyes on how to structure that. And, and as we started, you know, growing in our business, I started learning the things that we needed to outsource in order to free up more opportunity in our business for, you know, business opportunities. [00:17:18] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, yeah. Definitely like, you know, sounds like it worked out well. And it's, it's hopefully you never have to, never have to do it again, but at least you know you've got that system in place for, for the next 10 years. You know if and when you needed to do something like that again so, Let's move into editing and again not Imagen. [00:17:44] What is one thing that you do for editing that has saved you time? --- [00:17:44] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: What is the one thing that you do for editing? This could be pre Imagen, this could be post Imagen, but still you know something you do that that saves you time. Something something that you do for editing that saves you time, [00:17:57] Michael Anthony: You know, removing myself from the process, that was [00:18:00] the, the most important. Again, going back to us as creatives, being creative director, we look at our work and we are the most critical of it, right? So we're gonna look at our work and we're going to, you know, hyperly every little detail. And, and in doing that, we're taking a lot of time. [00:18:14] Michael Anthony: So let me give you a good example, right. I try not to call my own work if I don't have to. I try to let you know, allow allow some of the people we're outsourcing to some of our team members to be able to call my work, because otherwise it takes me a really long time to do it. My wife, for instance, she shoots boudoir and whenever I'm calling her job or whenever our team is calling her job, we've made it so that she's not in the room because otherwise she'll sit there and she'll overanalyze everything and it becomes a part where. [00:18:41] Michael Anthony: wHere it takes us too much time to going back and forth selecting this image or that image, right? So by removing us from that process of, of doing our own work, it actually allows us to, to get to that end product a lot sooner and also be more consistent in what we're providing to our clients as well. [00:18:56] Michael Anthony: And, and I think that that's really important. So. You know, bringing that [00:19:00] back to imagine, you know, like I said, we had already outsourced our work for many, many years. Imagine just kind of took out some of the time and the process and a lot of the cost in doing that for us and made things a little bit easier. [00:19:10] Michael Anthony: I. [00:19:11] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, there's two things I want to, I want to address that of what you just brought up. One regarding Imagen, you talked about being so emotionally, deeply, like, you know, invested in that, in the cull or the edit, is that when you go to an AI, right, it's, it's pure science, right? It figures out, it figures out you, it figures you out, however you want to phrase it. [00:19:34] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: But it removes the emotion from it. If you're having a bad day, the edits are gonna look the way that you edit no matter what. If you're having a good day, the edits are still gonna look the way that you would normally edit. There's no, there's no emotion, it's pure science. The other thing is, I'm curious, I've never asked anybody this but being the fact that you do portraits, you do boudoir in your studio, and you also do weddings, do you find when you do the cull, or when your [00:20:00] wife does the cull, Do you find that you are more sensitive to the cull and or the edit, let's go both ways when you do it manually on a boudoir session versus a wedding or a portrait because the fact that I would, I'm guessing and I could be wrong, but I would say a good half or more percentage of the boudoir subjects are probably more sensitive about their bodies Then let's say at a wedding or a other portrait session. [00:20:33] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So you are feeling, you're [00:20:34] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: feeling them. You know [00:20:35] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: what I mean? [00:20:35] Michael Anthony: I, I'd have to ask her about that, but I imagine a hundred percent that, that, you know, she, she does take a little more consideration about that. Jen's very good at. Knowing, how to make people look great and how to make them, you know, love themselves. Right. So I imagine that that might be why she takes a little bit more time, for instance, like. [00:20:53] Michael Anthony: Culling a wedding manually. For me, it takes maybe an hour and a half if I'm really kind of moving along right. [00:21:00] I'm taking the emotion out of it for her. Culling a boudoir session, which is maybe, I would probably say, 5% of the Imageners [00:21:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. It's a tiny [00:21:08] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: fraction. [00:21:09] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. [00:21:09] Michael Anthony: her half an hour to do that. right? [00:21:11] Michael Anthony: So if you look at like, the timeframe, calling boudoir is significantly slower than calling a wedding, for instance. And, and I do think that that probably is why, you know, she'll go through and she'll kind of hyper lyze things a little bit more than, than I would, for instance, if I were doing it. [00:21:24] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: That's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That it's interesting. I, I would, I would love to see. Somebody do an article or a case study on this type of thing. It would be so fascinating to get into the brains of people on this kind of thing. So interesting. [00:21:41] Michael Anthony: think the real test would be like timing her calling a wedding versus calling one of her beore sessions. And then we can kind of see where, where those two things, because it could [00:21:49] Michael Anthony: just be people are slower at calling too, [00:21:51] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Could, it could, yeah. [00:21:54] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Okay, let's go now let's see. Where should we go? So, I've got a fun thing to do. I think I'll ask this question [00:22:00] first, though. But, let's go after a session. [00:22:02] What is one thing that you do after a session that has increased business? --- [00:22:02] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: What is one thing you do after a session that has saved you time? [00:22:08] Michael Anthony: I would definitely say automating the, the reveal process. That's, and automating actually all of it, right? Like that, that's a really important thing because what are the things that have to happen after a session? Obviously the production part of it, but then because our studio works in IPS mostly, there's also like the, the scheduling part of it as well too. [00:22:26] Michael Anthony: Right. So we have, automated a lot of that process. After our session, our system will automatically send the client a text and they'll send them a, an email and it will, it'll, you know, ask them to schedule their reveal session based on our, our studio manager, our salesperson's, availability. [00:22:41] Michael Anthony: And, if they don't say schedule that session within three or four days, it's sending them reminders. Before we had automation in pro, in part. That process was all manual. Right? And whenever you have a manual process in your business, you're introducing the element of human error, which happens a lot. [00:22:57] Michael Anthony: And I'll tell you, like sometimes people just [00:23:00] forget, like life goes on, right? Let's just say a wedding, for example. They might go on their honeymoon, they might come back, life might get in the way, they gotta go back to work, and all of a sudden it's six months goes by and they have it come in to see their pictures. [00:23:08] Michael Anthony: Well, you could probably imagine that people who come in six months later after their wedding to see their photos. Those sales are probably gonna be a little bit lower than people who come in say, a month after their wedding, right? And we noticed this. It was definitely a trend, and, and we wanted to make sure that we limited that process a little bit. and then also it saves us time and money if you're outsourcing it because you're paying someone to, to do all these follow-ups by automating things. So by dialing in your automation process, really, really important. [00:23:36] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I'm going to ask you because I know that people are going to be asking when they listen to this. What IPS and, and if it's one platform, what IPS and automation system are you using? [00:23:49] Michael Anthony: So we utilize, ProSelect for, for IPS and and we use Lightroom because we do a lot of our IPS over Zoom and we notice that ProSelect. Doesn't work great on a Windows computer over [00:24:00] Zoom. And my studio manager uses a Windows computer to do the slideshows, right? So, it does work fine, but whenever you're doing slideshows, they buffer a little bit. [00:24:06] Michael Anthony: Lightroom tends to perform a little bit better. So we just use, we use Lightroom, for the slideshow, and then we go into to Pro Select for the IPS for automation. we use our own proprietary platform If you look at a active campaign, it's very, very similar. [00:24:19] Michael Anthony: There's also a company in our industry that offers it to photographers. It's called Lead Savage. So that's another one that a lot of photographers use, that's based on the same platform. And it works. It works excellent. So, definitely highly recommend that because, there's a lot that it can do. [00:24:32] Michael Anthony: And I will tell anybody who's looking into Lead Savage or even active campaign or one of these platforms, there is a very, very big learning curve. But once you learn it, it saves you a ton of time. So take the time to do it and and I promise your business [00:24:45] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. From what I understand about Lead Savage, I've been talking to Jeff about it and I, eventually I'll get into the back end and check it out, but, from what I understand, they've pre made a bunch of templates and things to get, to make it for easier for photographers, so it's not just the software, it's the [00:25:00] software tailored already, to give you that head start, [00:25:02] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: basically. [00:25:03] Michael Anthony: Yeah, exactly. And then there's like, there's like, you know, there's coaching elements to it too that they're, they're working on. So there, there's a lot of great things, in, in utilizing this software, which is tailored for photographers because that's what the owners are, you know? So, I definitely, I. [00:25:17] Michael Anthony: Recommend looking into it. If you are at a point in your business where you need to start, you know, outsourcing things. there's a lot of softwares that we use, but, but that software has been able to eliminate a lot of the stuff, that we were using and in terms save us a ton of money as well, because it, it just does a lot of things together. [00:25:33] Michael Anthony: I think the only thing on the photography side that it doesn't do at this point is like galleries. right? [00:25:37] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right. Right. [00:25:39] Michael Anthony: you know, that's something that we can't really ask it to do at this point. It's ask us much. [00:25:44] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So I'm curious now that now that I know that you're using that, that platform, I'm curious, are you doing emails and text messages or just emails in your automations? [00:25:54] Michael Anthony: both te I'll tell you right now, just, in the last year and a half, we've noticed that people don't really respond to [00:26:00] emails. It's just very, very rare. I mean, when we're trying to reach out to a client, whether it be an initial client or even communicate with clients that are already in our system. [00:26:10] Michael Anthony: Text message is by far, by far, by far, significantly better for reaching them. It just is, is a fact at this point. People don't really check three months. I know why I'm like looking at my email right now and I'm having anxiety 'cause there's 400 emails in my inbox, but [00:26:24] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: was one of them. [00:26:24] Michael Anthony: 20 that I actually have to look at. [00:26:26] Michael Anthony: Right. It's just, and, and that's the problem. Hopefully text messaging never gets to [00:26:29] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, I just, [00:26:32] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so for everybody listening, if you didn't catch that. The platform that Michael is using and also LeadSavage and others like it, it can mix in emails and text messaging within an automated automation workflow. You could have it do both at different times at the same time. [00:26:50] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Whatever you want. And it, it's just some cool stuff. [00:26:54] Michael Anthony: yeah. and Facebook Messenger and WhatsApp, whatever your choice is, you're not, if you're not in the US you probably use [00:27:00] WhatsApp. It, it does do WhatsApp messaging as well too now. So that's, that's another really, really powerful tool. There's so many more things you can do. We can do a podcast just altogether on that, but, you know. [00:27:10] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Alright. Now for my favorite part of the episode, pick a color [00:27:17] Michael Anthony: I can't see the colors. Okay, let's go with green. [00:27:20] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: green. Everybody chooses orange, so I'm gr I'm glad you chose green. Okay. I'm gonna shuffle through this deck and you just tell me when to stop. I'm gonna thumb through it. Okay. [00:27:29] Michael Anthony: Okay, [00:27:31] Michael Anthony: Stop. [00:27:34] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: My next question to you is you're married. So the answer is yes. Okay. I'm going to ask you this anyway, and just don't let Jen look at this or listen to this. [00:27:49] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It could be pre Jen, I guess. Have you ever had a roommate, and if so, what did you hate about it? [00:27:58] Michael Anthony: Oh my goodness. You know, it's funny, I was just talking [00:28:00] about this, with some friends, but I've actually never had a roommate, so it's very hard for me to answer that. Yeah. I think Jen was my, my only roommate. We've been together forever. Right. So, you know, I live with her, but I never had another roommate. [00:28:12] Michael Anthony: Never lived with anyone. [00:28:14] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I won't ask the second part of the question because she will probably [00:28:17] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: listen to [00:28:17] Michael Anthony: Okay. What's the second part? I'm curious. [00:28:19] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: What do you hate about it. [00:28:21] Michael Anthony: Hypothetical. Huh? If I, if I had a roommate, I'd probably hate everything about it. I'm just being honest with you. [00:28:28] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Oh man, oh this is... I love these decks, by the way, because the questions are just like... Some of them are really funny. Okay. Alright, so now we had a fun little laugh. Now I want you to look at your business from a 30, 000 [00:28:45] Can you share an outlined breakdown of your workflow from lead to delivery? --- [00:28:45] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: foot view down, okay? Can you share an outline breakdown of your workflow from lead to delivery? [00:28:55] Michael Anthony: Ooh, man, that is a long workflow. But I could, yeah. So the lead comes in,[00:29:00] and again, business is all about automation, right? So we put them into automatically. Automatically we put them into a, automation platform. Now, automation platform, and let's just call this a wedding lead, for instance, right? [00:29:12] Michael Anthony: It's gonna start sending them emails, it's gonna start sending them text messages, trying to get them to schedule a consultation with us. It also sends 'em their, our pricing. We started doing that this year just because, you know, it helps us manage the volume a little bit better, in the consultation. [00:29:24] Michael Anthony: We changed it recently from a, in-person consultation to a Zoom consultation. And now we just do a phone consultation just to keep things a little bit simpler for the client. once we get that phone consultation, we'll send them a booking proposal. hopefully they sign the booking proposal if they wanna work with us. [00:29:39] Michael Anthony: Then they go into a different automation, right? And that automation now is for, for booked, leads try to get them to book an engagement session. Obviously, you know, we're doing IPS, so we want them to, to schedule that engagement session. and then we're gonna send 'em a bunch of emails, preparing them for that shoot and also the wedding. [00:29:53] Michael Anthony: Get to the wedding again, another automation now, in order to get them to schedule their reveal session, after they do their reveal session, [00:30:00] gallery goes up and and they go and they pick their wedding photos. My wife does, sends out the album to be designed. Once the design is done, it goes to, it goes to her cue to order the book. [00:30:12] Michael Anthony: Once the album is ordered, we go ahead and deliver that album now. At that point, you might think the process is done, the client is delivered, right? But what is the, you know, the best client that you could possibly get? It's a, it's a previous client, right? It, it's gonna be the least expensive to acquire, and they're going to be the clients who are generally going to invest the most with you, right? [00:30:32] Michael Anthony: So now those clients are gonna go into another automation in order to, or a set of automation, should I say, which we call internally marketing roulette, right? Which allows us to send them ongoing promotions throughout the year in order to get them to, to sign up for portrait shoes and things like that with us. [00:30:46] Michael Anthony: So there, there's a lot that goes into it. And again, this is. A system we've been building over 12 years. Obviously in the last couple of years it's gotten a lot more simple 'cause of automation software but we want to make the most out of every client we get. And weddings are kind of the [00:31:00] beginning of the lifecycle, right? [00:31:01] Michael Anthony: And now that we're doing a lot of portraits, we want to bring them back in for portrait shoots. [00:31:05] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Awesome, awesome. Yeah, that, it, [00:31:08] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I love that your, your your entire workflow is heavily on outsourcing where it needs to be outsourcing, automating where it needs to be automating, and, you know, using modern technologies, but at the same time, you're still having these personal touches with the IPS, and you're still, you know, doing what you need to do as, as the, As the name on the photography business, right? [00:31:35] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: And even with your with your associates doing their thing and with your wife doing her thing and everything, everything's, everything is streamlined. So, perfectly and still being optimized, right? So [00:31:47] Michael Anthony: You know, it's, it's one of those things we live in California, having employees here, people, it's, it's gonna be expensive, right? It's just an expensive state to live in and operate a business. But, we've learned over time, like automation helps us to cut [00:32:00] down on the amount of people that we need involved in the business, and it also makes the clients experience a little bit better. [00:32:04] Michael Anthony: It's gonna be more consistent. You know, so, we're down. I mean, at the most, you know, we've ever had was like three full-time employees at one time. Right. And now we only have one. And then we have a bunch of, subcontractors, who have been with us for a really long time, who help us on the shooting side. and a bunch of services we outsource too. But I feel like for us it's the way to keep the business profitable and also efficient at the same time. also give the client a good experience. So, you know, it's one of the things that I think every business owner in this industry should look looking to doing. [00:32:31] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. And I think I think location definitely helps direct, what direction you need to go with that whether it's more full time or whether it is more contractors and things like that. And like you say, like. Where you live is very expensive and so and you figured out exactly what what needed to be done to make your business Still efficient and profitable at the same time So yeah, it's fantastic [00:32:57] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Okay, [00:33:00] you're using AI in your business, obviously [00:33:06] What does the future of AI in photography look like to you? --- [00:33:06] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: What what does the future of AI in photography look like to you [00:33:13] Michael Anthony: Cool. Man. It's a question we've all been thinking about a lot, right? Listen, I don't think, and, and what, what a lot of photographers worry about when this question comes up is like, is AI going to replace my job? And it depends on what your job is to an extent, but I think like wedding family photographers, especially wedding photographers, I think you're safe, right? [00:33:33] Michael Anthony: I think people are gonna need to have their weddings photographed. There's no AI that's gonna go in. I mean, I'm sure you could go in mid journey and like, you know, it can create an AI wedding photo, but who wants that? I, I don't think that that's gonna be a big thing. And if you're looking at trends in our industry right now. as far as like style goes, it's getting from like elaborate and complex, you know, a lot of the stuff we've been doing, digital artwork and stuff to more like simple and, imperfect work, right? That's why you see like blur blurred [00:34:00] photos becoming trendy and on-camera flash becoming trendy again, which is crazy, but to us, but to those, to, you know, to the industry and that, that's where it's coming right now. [00:34:09] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yep. [00:34:09] Michael Anthony: so I don't think that people are gonna want an AI generated wedding or an AI generated family shoot. There's some questions about, like, things like, family port, sorry, not family, portraits, headshots, professional headshots. but even, you know, if you're, if you're an actor, right, you're gonna need professional headshots. [00:34:25] Michael Anthony: They're not gonna want AI generated headshots for you. So maybe, maybe business portraits might be something affected in the future, depending on how good AI gets, but. Not something we worry about today on the production side or on the backend in the business side, AI is just gonna make our jobs a lot easier. [00:34:39] Michael Anthony: You know, there's, we've seen it already in, in the last two years, right? How many, how many advances have we seen in this field from marketing to production to know everything has gotten a little bit easier from us, and even, even the actual shooting itself, the AI. ai, I don't know if they're AI or not, but they call them AI algorithms that go into the autofocus in our [00:35:00] cameras, have gotten, have gotten really good. [00:35:02] Michael Anthony: So I, I feel like AI is an opportunity for us. It's not really a detriment. at least not at this point. I don't feel like it is. I think it's making things easier for us on the business side, and I still think that you have to be a professional business in order to take advantage of some of these tools for the most part. [00:35:16] Michael Anthony: So, you know, it's not something I'll worry about. I definitely think if you're not using it. You probably would be worried about it. So get into using it and use it to, to deliver better service and better products to your clients. and things will be good, you know, I mean, we've already found ways to leverage it in our business in order to make more money. [00:35:31] Michael Anthony: And, and I think, any studio could do that. We've talked about how we offer, utilizing AI retouching. We offer that as a product, in order to, to develop these, these services for our clients really quickly. Things like a same day slideshow with tools like imagine, right? These are things that you're able to do. [00:35:46] Michael Anthony: Much faster than you were able to do on your own, sitting there at dinner trying to stuff your face while you're doing it. [00:35:51] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yep. [00:35:52] Michael Anthony: It's just not, not a reality, [00:35:53] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Yeah. Have you heard what HoneyBook has been doing with, with AI in their CRM?[00:36:00] [00:36:01] Michael Anthony: No, I have not heard it. [00:36:02] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So, I think it's only a matter of time before like the platform that you're using and other photography CRM start doing this too, but HoneyBook has built AI that is actually analyzing the lead and the conversation that happens with the lead, um, and basically applying data points saying like the, this is, it's X percent for this person to convert To a client and like, and based on this conversation, we anticipate it'll be like five more days before they book [00:36:37] Michael Anthony: That's pretty cool. Yeah, I haven't seen that. I've seen conversational ai, like we have that in our platform where it can talk to the client to try to book an appointment. Still very limited, but it won't be soon, you know, that's gonna be something great. But that is excellent having AI analytics and data, because I would definitely like to know if it's worth sending that email to a client. [00:36:55] Michael Anthony: You know, that's gonna take me an hour to draft. You know what I mean? So. So [00:37:00] definitely I see, I see these things really helping us as business owners more than hurting, if that makes sense. [00:37:04] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. A hundred percent. I think there's gonna be a lot of cool business things like as, as more very smart software engineers, like the ones at HoneyBook, the ones that Imagen and so on. Start thinking of these different ways. To figure out, you know, how can we help photographers using AI that's not just, you know, another mid journey where it's like, where it's more analytical, more statistical, more actionable, I think that's where it's gonna really make a nice impact, [00:37:32] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: thinking outside the [00:37:33] Michael Anthony: and, and I'm loving it. By the way, I think most photographers are pretty tech savvy and I think, you know, if you are tech savvy, this is something that is exciting you at some, at some level. You know, it is just really cool seeing all of these things. I mean, every time, the first time I tried to imagine, I was blown away. [00:37:47] Michael Anthony: I was like, there's no way this is gonna work. And, I forgot who it was at the, at the team that had originally reached out to us. but in the very beginning I was like, this is just like, whatever, you know, it's not, it's not real. And then I tried it and I was like, this is [00:38:00] real. And the practical application for it is so significant that it will literally save our business, tens of thousands of [00:38:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Well, so let's, let's get into that, because my next question is, [00:38:10] How did Imagen impact your life? --- [00:38:10] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: how did Imagen impact your life? [00:38:13] Michael Anthony: Well, I, I kind of already gave it away. I mean, here's the thing. We were spending 50 to $60,000 a year on on Editing. Actually, even more than that, I think the most we've ever spent on Editing in a single year was over $80,000. Right? So the majority of that is like color correction, obviously. The selection process, those things that, that go into it. [00:38:32] Michael Anthony: And I can sit here and say the obvious, you know, imagine has saved me a ton of money on that in that regard. And I think a lot of photographers who have outsourced their work, have realized that. But here's where I really, really like, imagine when we were outsourcing our work before, we would have to send it to an editor and it would take, you know, four or five days to get back. [00:38:50] Michael Anthony: And as a business owner, let's just say we have 10 weddings in a weekend. Right? You know, waiting four to five days for those jobs to come back requires an additional day in order for me to just check [00:39:00] everything back in. Get everything going and, and, process it all out, if that makes sense. Or we had to pay somebody to do that. [00:39:07] Michael Anthony: But with imagine the cool thing is, is the Imageners are back in an hour, right? And I'm not saying you should deliver them to your client in an hour, because obviously they're gonna assume you didn't work on them for very long. But having that additional time, let's just say I come back from a wedding on a Saturday night and I have portraits on a Sunday. [00:39:23] Michael Anthony: Well, Monday I can go in the morning and I can process and finish this entire wedding out. It's just done. It's fresh on my mind. It's finished. And and I don't have to worry about waiting four or five days for it to come back while all the other things that are happening in that four or five day period are adding to my workload. [00:39:37] Michael Anthony: So the ability to really cut down on that time that we're doing that production has been significant in the organization, in our business, and the efficiency of it. So that's pretty much how it's changed. you know, what we do in the processes in our business and the cost savings are an obvious thing, you know, that. [00:39:52] Michael Anthony: It's been a significant savings, you know, for what we do. And I found imagine to have such a great algorithm, like I really don't, I don't touch the [00:40:00] edits that, that we have, coming back from Imagine. It's very rare that I do, I. the ability to try new Editing styles using the light presets significantly, affected our ability to, you know, adjust our style. [00:40:11] Michael Anthony: Really, really cool things. So, you know, the software in general has been a game changer. I think a lot of photographers have, have come to that realization and, you know, that's why very few people, have anything bad to say about it. [00:40:22] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: That's awesome. For those listening who don't know, Michael Anthony has a talent AI profile with Imagen. It's called California Dreaming, right? Yes. And it is built into the app. Anybody can use it at any time. Just you open up the app, you go to AI profiles. Click on the talent tab, and then you'll see Michael Anthony's profile there. [00:40:44] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: And again, you can just give it a try, use it, and see if it fits into your photo style as well. And you can even use profile adjustments to do minor tweaks and make it your own. So, which is that cool? [00:40:55] Michael Anthony: Another great [00:40:56] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, yeah and so many more coming. [00:41:00] So, with that. Where can listeners learn more about you, connect with you, and of course, see your incredible photography? [00:41:09] Michael Anthony: Thank you. So you can connect with me on Instagram, at Michael Anthony Photography. I also have a group for photographers on Facebook, facebook.com/groups/elevate your photography. and then we offer, in-person workshops and we are working on a wedding photography video course that, is almost finished with production. [00:41:26] Michael Anthony: I'm really happy to, to get that launched pretty soon. so head over to our Facebook group. go ahead and request to be added. We will review your profile and, and add you to the group. And I'd love to connect with you there. [00:41:37] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Awesome! Thank you so much for joining me, for having this awesome chat, sharing all of your tips, and for helping me to wrap up Season 2. That is... That's fun. [00:41:50] Michael Anthony: That's exciting. Happened quick, didn't. [00:41:52] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: it? [00:41:52] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: did, it? [00:41:53] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: did, it, you know, and now I have to start thinking about, you know, starting to schedule everything for season three. So, [00:42:00] oh, it doesn't, it doesn't end even though I'm ending it, you know, ending season two. It's not, it's not done. Yeah. [00:42:08] Michael Anthony: what you have in store for season three. [00:42:10] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. I'm some, some big, some big plans, some big plans. So it's going to be cool. [00:42:14] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Thank you again. We'll talk soon. [00:42:18] Michael Anthony: Thank you. [00:42:18] Thank you so much, Michael, for hopping in and having that incredible conversation with me. I know there was tons of takeaways for all the listeners, some really good stuff in this conversation. So again, thank you. And thank you for helping me to wrap up another season of Workflows. [00:43:00]