Surviving the Physical and Mental Demands of Wedding Photography with Lauren O’Brien and Michael Cassara

[00:00:00] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so I am gonna kick this off with a question for the two of you, [00:00:17] and feel free to answer them one by one. [00:00:21] If you had to give a percentage on the amount of thought you give to vendors versus your couples, what would it be? --- [00:00:21] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: if you had to give a percentage on the amount of thought that you give to vendors versus couples, what would it be? [00:00:30] Lauren O'Brien: Oh. [00:00:32] Mike Cassara: Are you asking in terms of like our podcasts? Are you asking in terms of us as business owners, photographers, [00:00:37] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: as photographers? Mm-Hmm [00:00:40] Mike Cassara: me, 92% goes to couples. [00:00:44] Like, like I like, and that's, that's being generous to the 8% for vendors. Not to say I don't give a shit about vendors, on a wedding day. but. To be honest with you, I'm there for the client, which is the couple. [00:00:57] I will absolutely work with every [00:01:00] single vendor and be like, play nice and play in that, that sandbox very nicely, especially planners like we work hand in hand with planners, with, with entertainment, things like that. But, the day is about the couple. So like, if you're gonna say like, what's like, you know, how, how much thought and time do I give to vendors? the only time I give thought and time to vendors is when we're planning timeline on the day of like coordinating schedules, things like that. but I'm not shooting for the vendors, I'm shooting for the couple. So, Lauren, how do you feel about that one? [00:01:30] Lauren O'Brien: pretty similarly. I had this past weekend I had a, a, a planner team of four people, which was like, so unusual for me, but it was a Connecticut wedding, which is, you know, a little outside of my general area that I usually work in. And they were all so great and wonderful. So I actually, a lot of the day I spent like kind of coordinating with them more so than the couple because the couple was so chill and laid back, it was almost like abnormal. [00:01:57] And they, they, they were great. So, but I would say on a [00:02:00] normal day it's, it's 90% about the couple. I don't really pay too much attention to the vendors unless it's really like photo video that kind of collaborate the most, I suppose if we're working together on the day of just making sure we're not stepping on each other's toes. [00:02:14] But other than that, yeah, that's it. [00:02:16] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: And how often do you step on, [00:02:19] on each other's toes with the, with the videographers? [00:02:22] Lauren O'Brien: You [00:02:23] do [00:02:23] chose that with, with, [00:02:25] with [00:02:25] violence, Scott? I wouldn't say it happens very often. It does happen. but a lot of times, like after a while you kind of compile your own list of like vendors you really love to work with. And that kind of goes out with my general welcome guide now. Like if they're considering other vendors, I'm like, here's some other vendors [00:02:46] to, to check out if you're considering, [00:02:49] video or a planning team or anything like that. [00:02:52] So I know like right off the bat that I'm gonna get along with them really well.but yeah, it, again, it doesn't really happen very [00:03:00] often anymore. but in the earlier days it, when I was shooting for [00:03:05] a [00:03:05] studio. [00:03:06] Mike Cassara: it kind of, you kind of could step on toes, like unwantedly, like, like you could kind of like, you know, like, okay. I think with photo video, photo videos could step on each other's toes a lot. And [00:03:17] it's usually just, yeah, you could usually just eliminate that by communicating, like, as soon as you meet them, [00:03:23] like in that initial like, Hey, how you doing? [00:03:25] Like, you know, like, Hey, I'm Mike. So like, you know, like, this is how I work today. Like, I always, like, if I'm working with a videographer, I, I don't know. and they, they come in and like, they meet me where they're there already and I'm walking in, I'm like, Hey, how you doing? You know, blah, blah, blah. [00:03:38] Like, okay, like, what, what kind of style are you like, and like, I'll be setting up my stuff and like just talking to 'em, kind of get a good idea. I'm like, are you cinematic? Like, are you gonna take them for like, required poses? Do you, like, are you gonna do like some. Some moves or anything like that, or you just like kind of documentary and fly on the wall, capturing it from an alternative perspective. because if they're documentarian, like they often don't step on toes, because [00:04:00] they're just kind of capturing, you know, the secondary angle and all that stuff. Whereas if they're cinematic, they're gonna want to take the couple to do certain things. Like they might want to do slowmo shots walking, they might wanna wide with a drone or something like that, which does require time. so usually if I know there's a videographer that's gonna be there and I haven't worked with them, I'll kind of check out their work and see how they kind of work. And I'll kind of allot for that in the schedule too. like, you know, if I see they're cinematic, like there's a few videographers that we work with in this area that are ultra cinematic and they, they take the couple to do their own thing and stuff like that. [00:04:33] So, you know, you gotta be aware of that and conscious of that, on the day because, you know, you want to give everybody like equal play time and [00:04:40] everything like that. [00:04:41] Lauren O'Brien: they're there to do a job. We're there to do a job and we really shouldn't like have this idea that one is more important than the other because we each got paid to do that same job. So it's like making sure everybody gets their, their airtime. [00:04:54] Mike Cassara: Yeah. At the end of the day, you know, we are [00:04:56] there for the client. So like, you know, like, you, you best be playing [00:05:00] nice. because you know, you don't wanna, you don't wanna piss off that client in one bit. [00:05:05] Lauren O'Brien: no, [00:05:06] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Well, so, so to go nerdy on this a bit, so this list or this, this, idea of. Of keeping, you know, like seeing, seeing the videographers work and determining if they're more documentary or cinematic. Are you creating like a little database for yourself of this, or do you just have like a note on your phone or, [00:05:25] or anything that, like you see the videographer, you can be like, oh, maybe I work with this guy already before, or this girl already before, or whoever, you know, and you can pull up that list and then, you know, or are you just keeping a mental note [00:05:36] Mike Cassara: It's usually, yeah, usually [00:05:37] Lauren O'Brien: I usually just mental. [00:05:38] Mike Cassara: it's usually mental. you know, like, some, some are very organized that they, they'll do that, but, there's like, I, I'd say a good 15 videographers. Like, like while Long Island is pretty large and New York is a pretty large network, when you start like working with people a lot, like you kind of start seeing the same people over and over again. [00:05:58] And it like, so you, you kind of [00:06:00] get a good idea. [00:06:01] Lauren O'Brien: It is almost like the couples too, like they kind of tie you together. Like when, like the, the videographers that Mike and I will work with will be very different from the videographers that like say a high-end luxury photographer will be working with. Not to say we don't cross paths every now and again, but you'll see, you'll definitely tend to work with certain people more often than others based on your style and personality. [00:06:24] Mike Cassara: As well as [00:06:24] Lauren O'Brien: well together. [00:06:25] Mike Cassara: well as the price range too. [00:06:27] Lauren O'Brien: yeah. So, we kind of just end up naturally, organically working together, which is really nice. [00:06:34] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: now to, we brought up stepping on each other's toes. [00:06:40] I'm just, [00:06:40] Lauren O'Brien: really wanna go for it, don't you? [00:06:42] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: well, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna lighten this a little bit [00:06:44] for a second here. Have you literally stepped on someone's toes while you were shooting? [00:06:49] And how'd that go? [00:06:50] Lauren O'Brien: time. [00:06:51] Mike Cassara: Oh yeah. A thousand percent [00:06:53] Lauren O'Brien: The amount of time somebody's stepped on me. Oh. I'm a very tiny person. Apparently. [00:07:00] Very easy to, to not see. [00:07:03] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So, [00:07:04] okay. [00:07:05] Lauren O'Brien: stilettos through my feet. [00:07:06] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Ooh. [00:07:07] Lauren O'Brien: Yo. [00:07:08] Mike Cassara: yeah, they're not fun. [00:07:09] Lauren O'Brien: Not fun. That's why I don't wear, I don't wear flats or sandals anymore. Only sneakers or boots because, ouch. [00:07:15] Mike Cassara: I've been wearing boots a lot more because Yeah, stiletto through the toe does not feel good. [00:07:20] Lauren O'Brien: Yo, it sucks. [00:07:23] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So, in, in the, Imagen, so we're, we're recording this at the end of August, 2024, and in the Imagen Community right now, about a week ago, we've got a, a, a conversation happening about times where photographers get injured on the job. And there's some, there's some scary ones, there's some funny ones. [00:07:40] There's a [00:07:40] bunch [00:07:40] Lauren O'Brien: a good one. [00:07:41] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: bunch of wedding photographers falling into fountains, you know, it [00:07:44] happens. so I am wondering, have, have you, what, what type of, what type of injuries has, have you had, while on the job? [00:07:53] Mike Cassara: Lauren, Lauren's, Lauren's, Lauren's got so many, I feel like, I don't know, like, she's like injury prone. [00:07:59] [00:08:00] Mine is so stupid. Didn't you get hit in the eye with something? [00:08:03] Lauren O'Brien: I got a paper cut on my eyeball. [00:08:05] Mike Cassara: Oh, yeah. [00:08:07] Lauren O'Brien: A paper cut on your eyeball. [00:08:09] On my eyeball. This happened in 2017. I was, this is before I had a, like a, a rolling gear bag. I had a backpack and I was getting my, backpack out of my car to go into the church. And I was pulling my paperwork out because I'm a dinosaur and I put everything on paper and not my phone. [00:08:28] and it was stuck. So instead of just opening the zipper even more like a normal person would, I pulled it really hard and it snapped back, flew out, and right into my eye. I sliced my cornea in three places. And if anyone listening has ever cut their cornea before, you know, it's the most excruciating, horrible pain. [00:08:54] I couldn't open my eye. It was just like super swollen, red, weeping openly. I [00:09:00] couldn't drive my car, so my second shooter had to drive me to the next location. and I had to keep shooting for another six hours like that before a replacement came and relieved me. And by then, the urgent care was closed, I had to go to the emergency room. [00:09:15] Mike Cassara: I haven't had anything like that. and not, and like, so, but like I will say, I'm like, I, I'm starting to feel fatigue in my older age. like I think photographer elbow is really a [00:09:30] Lauren O'Brien: my God, you in this elbow. I swear you love talking about it. [00:09:35] Mike Cassara: Oh my God. Okay. But it, it's 'cause it's irritating. So like, okay, so legitimately, I think my elbow is like, like you've heard of tennis elbow or like golf elbows, things like that. [00:09:46] I think I have that, but from photography, from picking up my camera going like this. Okay. And like, holding my camera up over here for the dance floor. 'cause I'm, I'm not very tall, so I like, do this a lot. And I notice, like [00:10:00] there are days I wake up and I'm like, my, my damn elbow hurts a little more than others. [00:10:04] So I'm, I'm literally gonna go get acupuncture because I think I, I need it. So [00:10:09] Lauren O'Brien: Slap some icy hat on it. You'll be all right. [00:10:12] Mike Cassara: I do. I put, I put some muscle rub on there, but knock on wood, not, haven't been injured. Injured. Like I've had, like, you know, like, geez, like [00:10:19] I've fallen, I, I've fallen, like, you know, I've tripped over things, things [00:10:25] and stuff [00:10:26] Lauren O'Brien: so embarrassing when you like, oh my God, because like we're always walking backwards. [00:10:31] Mike Cassara: always. I'm always looking behind me. I've seen that video, the dude, backtracking and falling into the ba baptismal fountain, at the church. So I I I've [00:10:38] Lauren O'Brien: well there's that, and then there's like constantly videographers falling into water features at venues. Like what is going guys? [00:10:45] Mike Cassara: there's a reason. If I'm shooting at a water, water venue, I literally, I'll take a camera off. like, like we wear two with a harness, so I'll take one off and leave it on the side. 'cause God forbid I fall in, [00:10:55] at least I have one camera that we'll be able to capture, so, you know, but yeah, [00:11:00] no, no, no bad injuries from me. [00:11:02] L Lauren, on the other hand, no. [00:11:04] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: the eye thing as a photographer that, that, [00:11:07] Lauren O'Brien: It was my shooting eye too. So it was like, when you're looking through the viewfinder and all that stuff, like at the time I was shooting on the mark four, it wasn't, it wasn't an R six, so it wasn't a digital viewfinder, it was just, you know, I had to, that's how I had to shoot. and I couldn't see, and I was like directing my second shooter at the time to like, I was like putting together the shots and making them take the photos 'cause I couldn't, couldn't do it. [00:11:33] and then, yeah, I asked him, oh my God, it was such a mess. I, again, this was not for my brand. This was under the blanket of a studio. That second shooter did not feel confident at the time taking over his lead. It was a gigantic bridal party. And he was like, nah, man, like I'm done in like two hours. I gotta go. [00:11:49] And I'm like, I am dying. Help me. [00:11:53] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: That's, [00:11:54] Lauren O'Brien: no, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go home. I was like. So another six hours [00:12:00] later, I'm still trying to hold it together for the [00:12:02] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I, I hope that, I hope that second shooter didn't get, rehired for another wedding. [00:12:08] Lauren O'Brien: Oh no, he did [00:12:09] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ugh. [00:12:10] Lauren O'Brien: multiple times. Yeah.but hey, listen, some second shooters, just second shoot, they don't like to lead. Shoot. And I get it. It's a lot of pressure. That bridal party, wedding party was like 30 people. So it was a day, it was a day, [00:12:24] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: a big one. [00:12:25] what, [00:12:26] What is one marketing strategy that has helped you grow your wedding photography business? --- [00:12:26] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: what is one marketing strategy that has helped both of you to grow your wedding photography businesses? [00:12:31] Lauren O'Brien: The podcast [00:12:35] Mike Cassara: PO podcasts did help. like it has helped, but I, I would say a lot, probably the most underrated feature that people don't use [00:12:42] or don't util utilize is Instagram stories. I, I think people kind of sleep on 'em a little bit. and that helped me tremendously grow my business. what I would do, I don't do it as much as I used to, but what I used to do was, after a wedding I would post teasers, right? [00:12:59] And [00:13:00] so it'd be like, I don't know, 10 to 20 images, captured from the past weekend. and what I would do was tag the couple. Tag all the vendors in the story. so there would be, you know, beautiful images and everything like that. And if it was pertaining to, that vendor, I would tag them in that part. [00:13:18] So flowers, you know, the couple, like venue, all that stuff, right? Even entertainment, all that would be tagged. What would happen was those vendors would repost those stories, dress companies would repost those stories. couples would repost those stories. I would see then a, you know, a basically a wealth of people coming in and, you know, like start following. then I noticed a lot of people would start like saying like, Hey, are you available on this date? Are you available on that date? and I think that was like a big marketing strategy that a like that I used that I still do, I just don't do as much. that would get a lot of people like at least, you know, in the door to see the, [00:14:00] see the, the work and everything like that. [00:14:01] So, that's the strategy that I employed and I kind of have been using for the last few years that I think a lot of people sleep on. 'cause you can make reels and you can make posts and everything like that and like, but I feel like they don't hit as hard or they don't get shared as much as like a simple story would 'cause All it is, is you hit add the story one, one click. [00:14:21] Like if, if that vendor or that couple likes it, all I have to do is click, add a story and boom, it's, it's right up on their thing. And. [00:14:27] Lauren O'Brien: think to touch on that too is like what you're doing, Mike, is you're also tagging vendors that you're working with in your region. So like it's very easy for those things to get shared in your network. I. Whereas, like let's say for example, I, I love posting reels that kind of showcase my personality as a photographer. [00:14:45] But those will get shared by other photographers in way far away regions. Like that's, that's another reason that the podcast has grown so much. But it's also not necessarily, we're getting a lot of followers from way outside of our region and we [00:15:00] want, obviously, couples to follow us so that we get those bookings. [00:15:03] So what Mike is employing is specifically for couples that are located in our region. It's really easy to share for vendors that maybe those couples have been considering. it shows off his style. It shows off like a little bit of something that he does for couples after the event. So it's like a good thing for him to do for his business in that regard as well. [00:15:28] 'cause it stays centrally located to where he's based. [00:15:31] Mike Cassara: Yeah, the, the like, like the goal for me is, and we, we said this on an episode of our podcast, but you know, it's cool if you have 50,000 followers, but how many are potential clients? [00:15:43] so it's always that, that quality over quantity metric that I cared about, like up until we started the podcast, I think like I had 5,000 followers, like 5,500 followers, I think, something like that. But the majority of my, the people following me were like potential couples. so, you know, like I didn't have a lot [00:16:00] of photographers following me, [00:16:01] in that, in that span, you know, I added like 7,000 followers. Most are vendors, most are photographers and vendors, so they're not really my target demographic, I'll be honest there. [00:16:13] Like, you know, like I'm not trying to target them. I, I'm still trying to use Instagram as, you know, a way to get couples. So, you know, I, I still, you know, try to employ those tactics to, to, to get couples and stuff like that because at the end of the day, while it's really cool to have 12,000 followers, which isn't, isn't that a lot? [00:16:32] That's not that much, but it's still like a pretty big number for a lot of people. I, I don't really care about that number. I care about like, who's following me, and, and I want couples to follow me. [00:16:44] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. Lauren, did you have a, did you have one [00:16:46] that you wanted to share? [00:16:47] Lauren O'Brien: You know, I was gonna say, like a lot of people that I personally have been following, because marketing is not like my, you know, in the interest of full transparency, marketing is not like really my [00:17:00] strongest area.I'm, I find like most of the engagement and like inquiries that I'm getting recently have come from directly as a result of the podcast. [00:17:10] Like, they'll, I even have a dropdown option in my inquiry form that says like, how did you hear about me? And they'll say the podcast, which is great for me. because it ultimately already has given these people a glimpse into what my chaotic personality is like. knowing that we're probably gonna get along really well. [00:17:26] but. You know, a lot of people were saying, you know, especially after, we just had, like an internet blackout for a little bit, your, you know, when your social media shuts down, what do you have left? You know, and that's like your Google, your SEO and all of that. So it's really important to like really pour a lot of your energy and effort into that. [00:17:47] because God forbid something happens with your Instagram, which may be where you get the majority of your business, such as the case for myself and Mike. if that goes down, if somebody, if your account gets [00:18:00] hacked or something like that, you have to make sure you have shit backed up. So like, PSA, make sure you put a lot of effort into your SEO and your Google listing. [00:18:10] Mike Cassara: Yeah, I, I still get a, a bevy of leads from, from Google. I think, I think people don't look at go. It's funny, the old school photographers, like if you think about it like some of the biggest studios in the world and some of the best photographers in the world, I. Aren't really on social media. [00:18:28] Like they're not, they're not really on Instagram. [00:18:30] Like, like my, a friend of mine, Brian Marcus, who is third generation at Fred Marcus Photography, one of the biggest wedding, the biggest and best wedding studios in the world. like give you an idea, they photograph like celebrity weddings. LeBron James was one of their clients and stuff like that. [00:18:45] He's not really, they don't really have a social media. They do, but they, they're not like super active or super followed on there. So like, and, and Brian himself isn't really that, that active or followed on there, but they get probably, I wanna say 5,000 inquiries probably [00:19:00] a year. They shoot, I don't know, hundreds of weddings a year as a studio. [00:19:03] And their clientele is luxury market. Like they, you know, I think their average package is like 15 to $20,000. So, I mean, you don't really need Instagram to market, but for most, it is probably the number one tool that you could use as a [00:19:18] Lauren O'Brien: Probably the fastest way to grow. [00:19:20] Mike Cassara: Yeah, a hundred percent. [00:19:23] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Awesome. Yeah. You know, it's, it's really nice to, to see that, launching a podcast has become a, a lead generator, but, you know, be, in addition to just being good social proof for a photography business, you know, it, it's, it, it's something a lot of photographers think about. It's like, should I launch a podcast? [00:19:42] Well, it depends. It depends on you, it depends on your market. It depends on your niche. and I think you guys have both proven that it's, it can be a powerful marketing tool, even if it's not your, your ultimate, highest lead gen. It is still a lead gen [00:19:57] Mike Cassara: Mm. [00:19:58] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so I think that's [00:20:00] great. speaking of vendors, so, [00:20:03] so, [00:20:04] Lauren O'Brien: mischievous giggle, Scott. [00:20:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: how do you, [00:20:08] How do you handle difficult clients or vendors or challenging situations while maintaining a professional and positive attitude? Do you have any stories to share? --- [00:20:08] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: how do you both handle the difficult clients or vendors? Or, or these, these really challenging situations that, that come up at weddings while maintaining your professional and positive attitudes without like blowing up back at the people who are giving you this hard time. how do you do it? [00:20:27] And do you have any fun stories to share? I'm sure you do, but do you have any bunch of stories [00:20:31] Lauren O'Brien: I mean, I just kind of disassociate like fly out of my body and just kind of go, all right, well, I mean this is happening, so let's roll with it. You know, it's, I feel like once it's happened so many times you just kind of build this weird exterior armor that [00:20:52] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Hmm. [00:20:52] Lauren O'Brien: kind of toughens you to those weird situations that you find yourself in. [00:20:56] I mean, sometimes it happens out of fucking nowhere. [00:21:00] Like Mike and I talk about the switcheroo all the time because you think that you're like connecting on this really good level with your clients. Everything seems great. They tell you everything that you wanna hear as a vendor, and then the day of comes and you're like, who the fuck are you? [00:21:15] Which one of your 13 personalities am I dealing with right now? and then you just kind of have to like put on your professional face and realize that this is not just like a random person coming at you with. Like any old, they're not trying to be aggressive on purpose. Like this is a very stressful event for a lot of people. [00:21:36] So you have to like wear your empathy hat, your compassion hat and realize that a lot of people deal with, like family drama or anxiety, stress in many different ways. It manifests in many different ways. So as much as you might not handle that situation in their position the same way you have to understand that other people do and work [00:22:00] with what you've got. [00:22:01] I don't know. It's, it's really, it is not easy sometimes, but you just kind of figure it out. [00:22:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. [00:22:08] Mike Cassara: Yeah, the, like, I think dealing with, vendor vendors is a little easier, [00:22:12] I think than clients because vendors, you could kind of be yourself and like [00:22:16] explain like, this is how you do things. Or like, Hey, like if you're not on the same page, it's very easy to kind of. Get back on the same page with the vendor. [00:22:23] Like, be like, like, especially like as photographers, we, our hands are in so much of the day that, you know, it's a team effort. Like, I think we just posted a clip about like, you know, who, who creates or controls the timeline, the photographer or the planner. [00:22:37] And you know, like Lauren said, it's like a team effort all around. [00:22:40] Like you work together in every facet. Like, so, you know, if you're not communicating with vendors, with other vendors as a vendor, you're, you're just not doing a good job. I've had situations with vendors that, you know, I'm like, yo, like I. You and I are gonna talk after this kind of thing. And like, I've had situations with [00:23:00] like, you know, head of, head of house and stuff, like, at a venue that, you know, he like would go to a, like, went to the couple and went over like, like over, instead of just talking to me, about like situations and stuff like that. [00:23:13] Like I wasn't ready to do night photos. Like, like he, we just sat down to eat dinner. Literally just like sat down in the room and it was like the, he's like, the couple's ready for night photos and we're like, well, like, we're not ready for night photos. That takes a little bit of time to set up, you know, we gotta get light lights out and all that stuff. [00:23:30] Can you give us 10 minutes? He's like, no, the couple's ready right now. And instead of telling the couple, like, hey, like, you know, like, give your photographer 10 minutes, to get the equipment set up. You know, he went, he went to the couple and basically started like blasting me to the couple. He's like, oh, your photographer's giving me a hard time. [00:23:47] He is not ready, to, to photograph that stuff. So like, my second heard him say that, and I literally pulled, like, after I did the night photos, I told the couple, I was just like, listen, I would, like, [00:24:00] I wasn't ready to go just yet, but like, your matri d shouldn't be telling you that. Like, like, you know, he should be just, you know, like handling that a little differently. And he, and they were, they were totally cool about everything. But I pulled that, that guy aside and I was just like, listen buddy. I was like, you don't ever, ever go to a couple and say like, something negative about a vendor to that couple that's not their business on the wedding day. You handle that with me. If you've got a problem with me, handle it with me. And we got into it like, like right after we got, after we got into it, after the wedding. And like he was probably the most unprofessional metre de ever, that I've ever worked with. So, you know, people handle situations differently [00:24:37] and. Like, I would never do that. [00:24:40] I've gotten, I, I've gotten, not to say confrontational with videographers, but like if a video, a videographer's stepping into your shot, like say you're a photographer and you set up the shot, right. And video's stepping into the frame. Like, I just ask nicely, like, hey, like, hey, like, can you get on the same focal plane as me? [00:24:54] Like same frame, same frame kind of thing. And I'll just like say, if they continuously do it, [00:25:00] I'll probably pull them aside and just be like, listen, I'm at a 50 millimeter. Like, just don't walk past the lens. Like, and you know, you're not in frame kind of thing. Like, if you need a shot, if you wanna get close, just tell me and like, we'll give you turn, we'll take turns and stuff like that. [00:25:15] And it's usually just secondary. I've had issues with videographers though, that like, they're like, they, I set up the shot and they've asked me to move. Like meanwhile I'm the one who set the shot up and I'm like, buddy, I just set the shot up. Like, no, like this is my shot. Like, you move, like, kind of thing. [00:25:31] And like literally [00:25:32] had to like, like, like literally like had to walk up to him and kind of whisper into him. Don't ever tell me to move outta my shot. [00:25:40] Like this is my shot, like, kind of thing. So I, I will get like, a client will never see it, but if you have to get confrontational, you might have to just do it at [00:25:52] Lauren O'Brien: Like if you have to pull 'em aside, it's just, you know, like, [00:25:55] Mike Cassara: Appropriate timing for [00:25:56] Lauren O'Brien: hash it out in private, like, you know, [00:26:00] just be, have some tact, you know? [00:26:02] Mike Cassara: Been in the industry a long time now. So like when you're in the industry a long time you see it all, [00:26:08] you are like, [00:26:08] Lauren O'Brien: seen, like we've talked about it before, I, an mc called me little girl to my face and I was like, bitch, what? [00:26:16] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. [00:26:17] Lauren O'Brien: Excuse the fuck outta you. You don't talk to people like that. [00:26:21] Mike Cassara: now with, but with, with clients, you, you always have to maintain professional status like that, that I, I think someone asked me like, how do you, how do you stay so professional with, with clients throughout, even if they're treating you like trash, like. [00:26:36] One [00:26:37] Lauren O'Brien: No. If they treat me like trash, I'm leaving. [00:26:39] Mike Cassara: Like if [00:26:40] Lauren O'Brien: I'm [00:26:41] Mike Cassara: have, we have, we have clauses in the contract to protect that. [00:26:44] We, we, like, we do, we have clauses in our contract to protect, protect us from being neg negatively talked about and things like that. And having, like, it's basically confrontations. [00:26:54] But you know, if, if a couple, like if the couple is [00:27:00] stressed, okay, or they're having a challenging situations, what, you know, you really have to kind of be a chameleon to their personality and like kind of talk them in, like off those stressful situations. [00:27:11] They might be stressed about something so minimal. And it's just your, your calming reassurance can just basically talk them off a ledge. you know, weddings are very stressful in that regard, so I don't blame couples for being stressed. Now if they start treating you like trash, different story, like they'll like blaming you for things if it's not your fault. Then, you know, like, like, come on, like, like let's be adults here, kind of thing. So, [00:27:38] there are challenging situations. There are, that are presented, but I think you have to kind of morph into a chameleon with your, with your clients, and handle it like appropriately for each, [00:27:49] every client's different. [00:27:50] Lauren O'Brien: It's when you know when it crosses the boundary from like. Stress into harassment. That's when you have, that's when you have the issue. Like you put your foot [00:28:00] down and be like, listen, you can't speak to me like this. Like, it's in my contract. If you're breaching my contract, I have every right to leave. [00:28:05] You know? [00:28:06] I haven't had a situation like that in literal years, like very, very long time. but, and never left an event. but I came very close on two occasions. one of which I've gone over on the podcast. The other, it was just like someone was being wildly inappropriate. And I was like, listen, this is it. [00:28:24] If you can't keep your hands to yourself and leave me alone, I'm leaving. You know, it's one of those, so like, you just, you just gotta roll with it. But I think like maintaining your professionalism with your clients is so paramount. and like you can do that and still be fun. [00:28:44] You know, I think a lot of people are just like, with my personality, especially mine and Mike's really, we are kind of like that shit crazy on a wedding day. [00:28:52] Like, we're not, we're not like, okay, now everybody smile. We're like, all right, now pop off and fucking [00:29:00] lose it. Or we're doing this again. You know, like, [00:29:03] Mike Cassara: like have fun. It's a wedding day, so you're supposed to have fun. So. [00:29:06] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: true. [00:29:07] yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so we, we talked about, a little bit about times when, a little time when you got a little cut in your eye. or three, let's. My next question to you is not about injury, but just overall, and I'll even start with my own example, but, [00:29:23] Can you share a time when something went wrong at a wedding and how you handled it to still deliver great photos? --- [00:29:23] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: can you share a time when something went wrong, and how you handled it to still deliver quality photos to your clients? [00:29:32] And I'll, I'll go first on this one.I don't know if you, if, if you both know this, but I don't photograph many weddings. I, I actually don't enjoy photographing weddings. but I, I take 'em when they're like something really, really special. and in one case I photographed a friend's wedding. it was a photographer I was mentoring for many years and he, graduated with his master's, not in photography, in something else. Proposed to his [00:30:00] girlfriend, and then he said to me, we're doing a destination, small destination wedding in New Orleans. I would love for you to photograph it. I'm like, hell yeah. Trip to New Orleans. Some fun with you. I'm, let's do this.meanwhile, my wife got, very sick the week of the wedding and I almost couldn't go. And I've got a great support system here. This was years ago, by the way. I, I have a great support system and, I was told, go, we've got, we've, you know, we've, we've got this handled. Of course, my, my mind was here, [00:30:30] my body was there, and I, I I love shooting 35 millimeter on one body, 85 on the other. I get the full range. [00:30:37] I don't like the 50 millimeter lens, but, I have one, I always bring it and somehow forgotten my 35. So I shot an entire wedding, destination wedding with a 50 and 85 and just made it work. There were times where. I had to climb on things at the venue I probably shouldn't have climbed on in order to get the full family into the photo, [00:31:00] but I had to do what I had to do. and a lot of those, a lot of those, a lot of those venues in New Orleans are small [00:31:05] spaces, right? So you're very limited, so wide. It actually works out really well. And I didn't have it, but I made it work. So that was my, like disaster where I got there and I freaked out. Like I just traveled this far and I forgot my favorite most important lens to me, and, just figured it out. [00:31:25] So, [00:31:26] yeah. [00:31:26] Mike Cassara: God, that's, I, I, I don't think I've ever forgot a lens. That's tough. That's, I I would probably lose my shit if I didn't have anything wider than 50. like, especially like dance floor. If dance floor is like crazy or something and you're shooting on a 50, Ooh, that's tough. So I, I, I feel your pain there. I honestly photo related, like, you know, it had a few like forgetful things like, oh, I forgot, like backup memory cards or, you know, forgot like a backup flash or [00:31:53] Lauren O'Brien: Batteries. [00:31:53] Mike Cassara: Bat batteries are probably like, I think we've all probably made like, you know, forgot to charge the batteries, like situation [00:32:00] and like, you know, had to scramble and be like, oh crap. [00:32:02] Like you're, you're just basically finding an outlet everywhere you go just to charge a battery. I've had that like when I first started like 10 years ago. I think that happened one time. I think like the, probably the most recent, but it wasn't really like photo related to us. Lauren and I actually worked one together. The bride forgot her veil. [00:32:21] Lauren O'Brien: Oh yeah, [00:32:22] Mike Cassara: On the way to the church, it basically caused a chain reaction to delay the entire day. [00:32:30] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Wow. [00:32:31] Mike Cassara: was an hour [00:32:32] Lauren O'Brien: by like an hour. [00:32:33] Mike Cassara: like an hour behind schedule because of, you know, they had to go back to the house, get the veil, come back to the church, get her dressed, all that stuff. [00:32:42] And then the church ceremony that, you know, the, the officiant, the priest, you know, did, did the whole thing. Like he wasn't like, I'm, I'm shortening this because, you know, you're behind schedule or anything like that. So who does that fall on when things run behind? It falls on the photographer to make up that time. [00:33:00] So because I built a schedule with buffer time allotted, we didn't really have like a too bad of a situation where we had to make up a ton of time, but we were scrambling a little bit. It was a chaotically hot day. [00:33:15] Lauren O'Brien: Oh my God, it was so hot. [00:33:16] Mike Cassara: went to a location that was super windy, so like you had bridesmaids that their hair was going everywhere. It was like, it was just not even worth it to shoot like offsite, like on that wedding. But, you know, we did what we could. We got like the photos that we could, the couple loved them. were we running around with chickens with our heads cut off? Yes. A little bit there for a while, but we ultimately got everything done. the client never saw our chaos [00:33:46] Lauren O'Brien: Yeah, [00:33:47] Mike Cassara: They never saw our chaos. They ne they like, we be behind the scenes. Lauren and I were like, but this is, [00:33:54] Lauren O'Brien: four seconds, Mike and I are just giving each other the like, [00:33:57] Mike Cassara: okay, this is fucked. Where, where? Like, what do we do? [00:34:00] What do we do? What do we do? [00:34:00] Lauren O'Brien: it's fine. [00:34:02] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: sorry to cut you off here, but, but so, so. You know, quite, [00:34:07] What makes someone a professional photographer? --- [00:34:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I would say, you know, a couple times a year I see in different social media forums and communities and whatnot, somebody saying What makes the difference? What's the difference between a, you know, a, a, a hobbyist and a pro? Right? And quite often people say, oh, you're making money in the, in your business, makes you a pro. I look at it like in its simplest form, a pro is somebody, when chaos ensues, when all hell breaks loose, nobody can tell. [00:34:34] Mike Cassara: Yep. [00:34:35] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: That makes the pro, [00:34:36] in my [00:34:37] Lauren O'Brien: I tell, my clients like the first question that you can start to tell when, they might start to be stressing is, what time is it? Right? You hear the mask, what time is it? And I just go mind your business. but like also it's just kind of like, [00:34:51] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: like, [00:34:52] Lauren O'Brien: don't stress about anything until you see me start to stress because I never stress, you know, it's one of, one of those things I'll, I'm ne what, what [00:34:59] Mike Cassara: [00:35:00] say that tagline to, to our [00:35:01] Lauren O'Brien: All the [00:35:02] Mike Cassara: all the time, The only time you, yeah, only time you could see. The only time you could stress is when you see us stressed. That's [00:35:08] Lauren O'Brien: never happens. [00:35:09] Mike Cassara: And it never happens. [00:35:10] Lauren O'Brien: And it's real, like yes, internally you might be sweating, right? But you don't show it on the outside. You're just always going to, I mean, Meredith and I had a wedding recently, our, our collective second shooter, where [00:35:23] Mike Cassara: mine first, by the way. [00:35:24] Lauren O'Brien: yes, I borrowed her, where, you know, it was weather, weather was weathering and they did not have a contingency plan in place. [00:35:34] and it was just, and we're not talking weather, just rain. It was the day that all of the North Shore on Long Island flooded roads collapsed like it was. Apocalypse outside. and you just roll with it. That's it, that's all you can do. Like what, what can I do to stop the weather but have preparations in my car, umbrellas and things like that, just to ensure that they stay dry when they're outside. [00:35:59] and then [00:36:00] it's up to the couple to pivot their attitudes. You know, I can't change it for them. So whether they accept it and listen to me, reassuring them that they're going to have beautiful images regardless, that's on them at that point. And I can't control it. So I just accept what it is moving forward and do my best to turn in the beautiful images that they asked for. [00:36:25] and that's it with you talking about your lens though, in that situation, it reminded me of, A time where I put my lens on, I think it was a 24 70 at the time during a reception to photograph reception. And I didn't turn it all the way to click it into place and it flew off my camera body and got kicked across the floor in the middle of the reception. [00:36:51] So my 24 70 was wrecked, and kicked like a soccer ball.and then I just had to put on a 35 for the rest [00:37:00] of the night and pray and pray to the photo gods that it wasn't a 16 millimeter type of party. [00:37:05] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right, right. I, I did, I did drop a lens once, once in my life. It was not on the job. It was actually at Photo Plus Expo.rip Photo plus Expo. I missed that event. it was, I was going on a photo walk. Do you remember 500 PX when that existed? [00:37:21] I guess it still exists, [00:37:22] right? So when the, [00:37:24] Lauren O'Brien: was like before Flickr, wasn't it? [00:37:26] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: wasn't it [00:37:26] No, it was [00:37:26] Mike Cassara: No, it was [00:37:27] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: but it was [00:37:28] Lauren O'Brien: It was after. [00:37:29] Mike Cassara: Yeah. [00:37:29] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Yeah. but the, the original co-founders of, of 500 px, they, they were leading a photo walk. This is also pre photo walks, like official photo walks at a, at event. they were leading a photo walk that I was, joining and I went to go swap whatever lens. I think I was putting my 35 millimeter on for the photo walk, and I put my 85. This was a Nikon F Mount, so this is also premier list. I'm really dating myself here [00:37:57] and [00:37:58] Lauren O'Brien: a Nikon, so.[00:38:00] [00:38:00] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I love my Nikons. So it was, it was a Nikon, it was a Nikon 85 1 8. It was the, the D type. So it still had like an [00:38:08] aperture, an aperture that would turn put in my bag. I must have knocked the bag and the thing went smack on the New York City sidewalk and [00:38:18] glass was in fine shape. Aperture blades were kind of just floating around. So [00:38:23] it was, it was a goner, [00:38:25] it was very sad, very [00:38:26] sad [00:38:26] Lauren O'Brien: so sad. [00:38:28] Mike Cassara: is [00:38:29] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: When you, when you see it happening, [00:38:31] Lauren O'Brien: Have you seen the, have you seen like the triggering videos, like specifically for photographers where they'll like show you like, this is how I clean my camera and they put the whole camera and the lenses in the [00:38:40] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Oh, ugh. Yeah. [00:38:44] I, [00:38:44] Mike Cassara: like, Ugh. Please. [00:38:46] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Ugh. [00:38:46] Lauren O'Brien: No, [00:38:47] Mike Cassara: Yeah. Yeah. [00:38:48] Lauren O'Brien: don't do that. [00:38:51] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Bad news. Bad [00:38:52] news. okay, so, so, so let's be honest here for a moment. [00:38:57] We know what our, what our [00:39:00] clients want. We know what the couples want from the photos, right? We know if they want natural, that we know, if they want documentary. We know if they want every single thing posed. [00:39:09] We know what they want. Okay. What do you both prefer? [00:39:14] Let’s be honest - do you prefer organic, candid moments or more structured and posed wedding photos more? --- [00:39:14] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Do you prefer the organic handon moments? Do you prefer more structured, imposed, photos for your, for your weddings? What do you prefer more than your clients? [00:39:24] Lauren O'Brien: Mike, you go first. [00:39:26] Mike Cassara: so I'm a hybrid. I'm basically a hybrid style. my photos look organic and candid, but I'm putting people in position to create those moments, so I'm crafting them. But to look candid and authentic. so I might set up a couple to, you know, be in the best position, the best lighting, the best scenario, but I'm then gonna have them do something that creates a candid feel. [00:39:53] I. My posing isn't really posing, it's prompting. So I add a lot of movement based to [00:40:00] my, to my photography. So everything in choir is, is movement based. every single thing. Like they're never standing still. They're always moving. Whether it's just a, a, a little sway or just running their hands up and down, like, you know, like, like could be run your hand up and down your arm, grab his face, you know, do a little, like, maybe a little spin or, okay, you're gonna walk to me, grab his arm, go wide, pull each other in. Every prompt I do incorporates movement. because I want to create those organic, natural feeling over a stationary pose photo. Because oftentimes where couples look the most uncomfortable is in a pose. they're not pros, they're not, you know, like they're not Kate Moss or anything like that where they know how to pose. So if you create, if you put them in a situation where they feel comfortable, and usually movement makes anybody feel comfortable in front of a camera. You see that comfort come out and you see those that, that organic feeling come out in photographs. And so that's like the style I try to incorporate [00:41:00] into, you know, portrait sessions. [00:41:01] Wedding days especially is, you know, I'm, while it's candid and feels unforced, I am setting them up for success by adding movement. [00:41:12] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, [00:41:14] I [00:41:14] Lauren O'Brien: Now on my end, I would say I'm a little bit more, structured with my posing than Mike is a little bit like we we're both, I would say we're both hybrid, like he is saying, like we definitely incorporate a lot of movement into my work, but I also. Definitely have my moments where I want like an editorial vogue vibe and I'm setting 'em up that way. [00:41:37] So like I see Mike says this all the time, he sees, oh, that's your light right there. That's Lauren light. Like he'll, he knows, like, if I see a pocket of light, I'm like, all right, you're getting in there and you're gonna do this. Like, I'm gonna set you up the way that I wanna, that I see it in my brain, like I have it already set up in there, and then I put them that way. [00:41:58] And I'm saying, don't [00:42:00] fucking move. Like, don't move a muscle. And if I do have them move, it's very small, like little movements, because in certain situations like that, if you move your head too much, then the light changes, then there's shadows or something like that. So they have to stay pretty still. but I think he'll do that too. [00:42:17] You know, like it's just kind of [00:42:19] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: of [00:42:19] Lauren O'Brien: situational, but you're paying attention. To those situations. If they are in a stationary pose, they're still moving their hands, they're still, you know, talking to each other. All those things to make sure that they're having those organic re moments. Or I'm prompting them. [00:42:37] Maybe it's not movement, maybe it's say this thing into their ear or something like that. one of the ones that I really loved, which I saw on somebody else's Instagram, so whoever it was, I'm sorry I stole this from you, but whisper in the sexiest voice. You can possibly muster what you want for dinner, [00:42:53] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I I've done that one. I've done that. [00:42:57] Mike Cassara: Yep. [00:42:57] Lauren O'Brien: that came from. It works every [00:42:59] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: [00:43:00] Yeah. [00:43:00] Mike Cassara: I just say WI say whisper a random vegetable. [00:43:03] It's like, or fruit. It's like [00:43:05] avocado, you know, something like that, you know? [00:43:08] Lauren O'Brien: every time. It works. And you know what? Thank you for that random stranger on the internet. I. Thanks for not gatekeeping your prompts. [00:43:16] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. I love that. I love it. [00:43:19] Lauren O'Brien: we mix it up. I, we've talked about this too before. The complete photojournalist style of photography where they're completely hands off does not work for us, [00:43:29] Mike Cassara: No, [00:43:30] Lauren O'Brien: not for us. [00:43:31] Mike Cassara: it, it that, that's like, I, I, I love that style. I think it's incredible. But it, you have to be the right couple for [00:43:40] that style, [00:43:41] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yes. The couple has to want that [00:43:43] for [00:43:43] Lauren O'Brien: Yes. [00:43:44] Mike Cassara: and I'll be honest with you, I think 95% of couples need some structure, in the day. [00:43:52] Whether [00:43:52] Lauren O'Brien: That depends though, [00:43:53] Mike Cassara: it, it does, it does. Like I've seen couples that basically inquire. [00:43:57] They're like, I don't want any family photos. I don't want nothing. Just [00:43:59] [00:44:00] be fly on the wall. Like, you know, like, we'll walk around with you and stuff like that, but we're we're, you know, and I'm like, cool. Great. [00:44:05] Lauren O'Brien: it in writing. [00:44:06] Mike Cassara: Yeah. [00:44:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I am, I'm kind of a hybrid in that sense where, for me, because I, I don't enjoy doing wedding, wedding, photos when I do a wedding. It is documentary style. [00:44:20] However, I. I will do the family posed family [00:44:23] photos for the cup, for the groups that they want [00:44:27] to have. Right? So there's a little bit of a combination, but I would say 90% of the wedding is documented [00:44:33] style, [00:44:33] Lauren O'Brien: think also, like Mike and I are in a very, a crazy wedding area. Like if you look at Long Island, New York City that the Metro, tri-state area is like wild weddings and they're all very structured. It's not like this in other places, you know, in, in the Midwest, in, in a lot of places where there's more of an elopement vibe, there's smaller, more intimate weddings, or they're just not [00:45:00] structured the same way. [00:45:01] The, but the, the cost is much lower. there's just different styles of photography in every region where we, our way isn't the only way, and it's just gonna be different no matter what. So like, maybe, you know, especially with elopements and destinations, you're, they're just up there like enjoying scenery, you know, they're exploring, they, it's almost impossible to take a bad photo in some of these areas because they're just soaking it all in and they're by themselves. [00:45:33] So like, they might have the ability to just photograph those natural moments as they unfold. And it's not as. What the hell do I do? You know? [00:45:43] Mike Cassara: Yeah, [00:45:44] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yep. [00:45:44] Lauren O'Brien: so things are, it's always different. [00:45:46] Mike Cassara: I've seen, I like witnessed that firsthand photographing a wedding in Ireland where it was just like, you can't take a bad photo, so you can do whatever you want. Like, [00:45:54] you wanna go stand over there. Go ahead. I'll, I'll, you know, I'll shoot a wide, I'll, I'll get in tight. You know, you, you really can't take a bad photo. [00:45:59] [00:46:00] So, props to those documentary photographers that, [00:46:02] Lauren O'Brien: It must be so nice. [00:46:04] Mike Cassara: it must be great. [00:46:05] Like, awesome. Phenomenal. Good for you. [00:46:08] Lauren O'Brien: Tell me what that's like. [00:46:10] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I, I do a lot of proposal photography, and that's one of the things I love about it, is you always get some really awesome background, you [00:46:18] know, for the moments that are important. Then you can do this, this like engagement session afterwards and again, you've got these beautiful backgrounds and you know, more often than not at, they're at sunset. [00:46:28] So you're getting beautiful light from there. It's just, it's plus it is also extremely stressful, like a wedding day is, [00:46:35] but in a very condensed timeframe. So, [00:46:37] but, common mistakes. [00:46:40] What are some common mistakes you see new wedding photographers make when working their first time at a venue? --- [00:46:40] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: What are some common mistakes that you see new wedding photographers make when working at the, the first time at a venue? [00:46:50] Mike Cassara: Ooh, that's a great question. ooh. [00:46:54] Lauren O'Brien: whatever they want without asking the mare D what they're allowed to do. [00:46:57] Mike Cassara: Yeah. If it's at a, if it, if it's a [00:47:00] venue, new photographers tend, especially like the younger generation, tend to, I think, think they, they could do whatever they want [00:47:09] and go anywhere they want and, and say anything they want. Take the couple, whenever they wanna take the couple, you know, there's a lot of moving parts to a wedding day, and I think if you're on somebody's turf, especially at a venue, you know, just asking like, Hey, like, you know, is there anything going on that, like, I'm, I'm looking to take the couple. Here, here's like my schedule, here's what we laid out. And most of the time the couple like relays the schedule to the plan, the, the, you know, coordinator at the, at the venue and everything like that. But if they don't, like, you know, just saying hello talking to that person. And, [00:47:44] Lauren O'Brien: Saying hello, [00:47:45] Mike Cassara: yeah, like [00:47:46] Lauren O'Brien: introducing yourself. Very important. [00:47:47] Mike Cassara: it's, a lot of, a lot of photographers don't do that. [00:47:50] They, they walk in and they, they act like they own the place and, and that's just, [00:47:55] Lauren O'Brien: There's a lot of ego in this industry. [00:47:57] Mike Cassara: Yeah. And photographers are, are very [00:48:00] big with their egos. like, it's just, it's unfortunate too, 'cause we get like a really bad, bad rap at times. And like, we see it in some of our, some of our posts and everything like that. [00:48:10] They're like, oh, these two have egos and stuff like that. [00:48:13] Like, but. [00:48:14] Lauren O'Brien: we're so arrogant, but like if you work with us, you'll literally, we give everybody, introduce ourselves and we're so polite. It's crazy what people think about us. [00:48:25] Mike Cassara: Yeah. It, it's legitimately like, like if you ever shadowed us on a wedding day, it would be like, like, oh man. Like, it's like there's no ego involved. Like you have to, you have to communicate, and we talked about that at the beginning of the episode, but like, communicate with other vendors so you're on the same page. The venue is a vendor, like [00:48:47] the, the people that run the venue are vendors, so getting on the same page and communicating with them is the key to success here. Don't walk in and act like you own the place You [00:48:56] Lauren O'Brien: Yeah, because you're off to a bad start. They will literally not let you do [00:49:00] shit. [00:49:00] Mike Cassara: yeah. [00:49:00] Lauren O'Brien: They're in control. You know, they can tell you immediately, like, you're not respecting our rules. You gotta go. [00:49:06] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right? [00:49:07] Lauren O'Brien: you know, that's it. That'll turn the tide on the rest of your evening. [00:49:11] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. And, and each, each venue might have their own individual rules. So one venue may not have the same rule as the other one that you, [00:49:17] you might, you might assume, oh, well this venue didn't care that I did this, but you know what this other one does, so [00:49:23] Lauren O'Brien: Well, we have like venues out here where there's like multiple events going on at the same time. You never want. These couples to cross paths and get in each other's way or anything. So you really ha like some of them, if you just take the couple and go and shoot wherever the heck you want, like, you'll find yourself in a very bad position. [00:49:43] you have to like, you have to talk and communicate with where you're allowed to go, where they're okay to be photographed, what time it's okay to be doing that where, and all of this. So it's, you don't make those mistakes [00:49:55] Mike Cassara: no. [00:49:56] Lauren O'Brien: just because you wanna get shit done. It's not, [00:50:00] not good. [00:50:00] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.I have one more question for [00:50:03] the both of you, and, unless you have any questions for me, I'm gonna ask my last question. [00:50:09] Mike Cassara: Okay. [00:50:10] Lauren O'Brien: Okay. [00:50:10] If a photographer came to you saying they were going to start a podcast to attract wedding clients and wedding planners, what 1 tip would you give them? --- [00:50:10] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: if a photographer came to you, [00:50:12] let's [00:50:12] say, it doesn't matter if it's a new photographer, an existing photographer who's got a successful business, or whatever it might be, this photographer came to you and said that they're gonna start a podcast to attract more wedding clients, attract wedding planners, attract venues, and et cetera. what would be the one tip from each of you individually that you would give to this photographer? [00:50:35] Lauren O'Brien: Hmm, [00:50:35] Mike Cassara: Lauren, you wanna go first? [00:50:37] Lauren O'Brien: no, [00:50:38] Mike Cassara: Okay. [00:50:40] Lauren O'Brien: I gotta think on this one a little bit more. [00:50:42] Mike Cassara: All right, one tip. Okay. if you're gonna start a podcast, I. [00:50:46] In 2024 going into 2025. And you want to make it photo related, it's really just podcast. This is for podcasts, more than it is for photo. Make it a video podcast. biggest tip I could give. when we [00:51:00] started this thing, I, we, we found a producer that was a friend of ours and we talked about it and I said, you know, if Lauren and I could have started a podcast. Through Riverside, through, you know, just like us talking and like, you know, like, like, on the couch or something like that and, and recorded it. Okay. No one would listen. it, it, it's so hard to grow a podcast with just audio today. You need video. so my suggestion is like, if you're gonna do a podcast that needs to be a video podcast, like first and foremost, the reason the vendor table grew to the level that it has is not because we're good at podcasting. [00:51:37] I think we're probably average, if not to below average in terms of like how we are our listener base and all that stuff. But what grew us was our social media presence. And how we did that was from video based clips that we make from our long form content and we create short form content. That short form content is a minute to a minute and a half. [00:51:56] It's Clippable, it's tiktoks, it's Instagram [00:52:00] reels, and their talking points. so, you know, without that video. Without that format, you know, we wouldn't have grown to the level that we grew to. [00:52:09] so I think if you're starting a podcast today, you like, while, you know, podcasts are audio driven, you should have a video format if you expect it to grow, especially on social media. [00:52:20] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Well [00:52:21] Lauren O'Brien: I also think, [00:52:22] Mike Cassara: I. [00:52:22] Lauren O'Brien: it's one of the things I've noticed is that I have a harder time listening to podcasts where it's just one person. talking. I gravitate to podcasts that have co-hosts where they have banter. So like more educational podcasts don't really like, this is just me specifically. They don't really grab me unless it's a topic I'm so interested in. [00:52:47] So you have to, if you are starting a podcast by yourself, like you have to make it interesting. You have to like really draw somebody in. even if that's incorporating a little bit of humor so it's not so dry and [00:53:00] boring. You know, that's, I think a lot of the time people listen to us because we're, because we have video. [00:53:07] You can see our facial expressions and the way that we're, our body language is talking to each other. Mike and I are like brother and sister. We fight all the time and we're annoying and [00:53:16] we, the, the, the feedback that I get about our podcast, which is like one of the things we don't think about because it, we see each other all the time. We talk to each other like this all the time, is that I. Our dynamic and our chemistry together is really great, which when we talk to each other, we're just like, fucking hate you sometimes. [00:53:37] Mike Cassara: Yeah, we fight all the time. legitimately fight all the time. So it it like, if you're gonna have a co-host have good chemistry with [00:53:45] them, like, you know, like that, that's something that I think [00:53:49] you should have like often. [00:53:50] Lauren O'Brien: my kid. Hi. [00:53:53] Mike Cassara: we don't. [00:53:54] Lauren O'Brien: Hi, baby. [00:53:55] Mike Cassara: We don't step on each other's toes. Like that's one of the things is like we don't step on each other's [00:54:00] toes. [00:54:00] Like, like we let each other breathe and talk and get points across. So, [00:54:03] I think that's when the [00:54:04] podcast works the best is when we, we let each other [00:54:08] breathe and go. [00:54:09] So. Absolutely. [00:54:12] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. [00:54:12] Lauren O'Brien: but yeah, I don't actually hate you, Mike. [00:54:14] Mike Cassara: Yeah. And I don't hate her either. [00:54:15] Lauren O'Brien: we just, we just recorded an episode where at one point I said I would miss you if you died. [00:54:21] So I would miss him if you died. [00:54:27] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: died. Yeah. [00:54:28] it, it, it's, it, it definitely comes across that, the two of you are really close friends, but also work together. It's, it's, you know, even if you didn't know it, you know it, [00:54:39] right. It, and it comes across. So I think that is a really valuable, valuable thing. one what Mike, what you said with, with having the video, 'cause it does, it does unlock a whole, whole boatload of opportunities by having that video. and then Lauren, what you said as well. [00:54:56] have a, i I I have a question for Scott real quick. [00:55:00] Hold on. because, you know, with, with this being an Imagen Based podcast and [00:55:04] Mike Cassara: everything like that, you, you said, do we have any questions for you? Okay. So before we sign off and everything like that. Okay. So Imagen as legitimately, and this is gonna sound like an ad, and Scott didn't pay us to say this or anything like that, okay? [00:55:17] We're here willingly, but Imagen has literally changed our lives as wedding photographers. [00:55:22] So if you are listening to this and you're a wedding photographer and you're getting to the end of this podcast and everything like that, and you haven't. Downloaded. Imagen Okay at [00:55:30] all. [00:55:30] Okay. Try it out because it's literally a game changer. [00:55:33] Like legitimately, as we were recording this podcast, it just edited 1500 photos. So game changer. So I wanted to say that to you first and foremost, like, you know, like thank you to you and the crew for, for an amazing product and literally giving us time back. Because as vendors, you know, that time is very precious. [00:55:52] Precious to us. So like the question I had for you is, is, there anything new with [00:56:00] Imagen that's like we should be, you know, looking out for like radar wise. [00:56:04] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Oh, well. So we're always working on fun stuff. so again, I, I mentioned this earlier. We're recording this at the end of August, 2024. last week we released a, a, a ton of things for the, school and sport, high volume genre. we also have, a bunch of real estate features that were released and some more coming for real estate specifically. and, for weddings specifically, we're, we are always working on, new. Talent AI profiles for those who don't have their own, their own editing style. So I'm not sure if it'll be out by the time this episode airs or not, but we have another one around the corner. and it's a very unique talent AI profile. [00:56:47] We don't have anything like it in the profile showcase right now. and of course there's other features coming. teeth whitening is around the corner as well. [00:56:56] Lauren O'Brien: Nice. [00:56:57] Mike Cassara: Wow, [00:56:58] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: as well as background [00:57:00] mask is coming very [00:57:01] Mike Cassara: nice. [00:57:02] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So lots of, lots of fun stuff that, a lot of people have asked for. [00:57:06] Mike Cassara: dude. The, the, the straightened tool is like my number one, like, just like tool [00:57:10] I [00:57:11] Lauren O'Brien: strange tool, [00:57:12] Mike Cassara: legitimately like the best thing I think you guys ever added was that feature, like 2 cents an image, just boom. Okay. I know every photo is gonna be straight. [00:57:23] And like, as somebody that hates crooked horizons, [00:57:27] it's game [00:57:28] Lauren O'Brien: I can't believe how many crooked photos I take. I don't understand like, am I, I'm not drunk. Why is this happening? Like, I see it, it's straight, and then you look at the back of the camera and you're like, what did I do? [00:57:41] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, [00:57:41] Yeah, [00:57:42] It, it, I feel the same way. I feel the same. I [00:57:44] always [00:57:45] Lauren O'Brien: don't [00:57:45] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I had, like, I, I always thought my hands were very steady and I had a great eye for, for keeping things straight. Nope. Nope. It's all off. [00:57:52] Lauren O'Brien: I. A ghost is fucking with me. That's, I'm just considering my [00:58:00] camera's haunted and it's messing with me, and I, that's the only explanation I can come up with. [00:58:03] Mike Cassara: maybe you're like one leg slightly shorter than the other one, you know, like, [00:58:07] Lauren O'Brien: Oh, don't say that. [00:58:08] Mike Cassara: it's like the Happy Gilmore. It's like, like, like, oh, it's breaking slightly, right? Like, [00:58:13] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Speaking of Happy Gilmore, completely unrelated to, to the, to what, you know, the general genre of what we're talking about, but Happy Gilmore two is starting [00:58:22] filming next [00:58:23] Mike Cassara: excited. So [00:58:24] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: in New Jersey. [00:58:25] Mike Cassara: It [00:58:25] really. Yeah. Oh yeah. I saw the line, like somebody posted like, it was like, a queue to for open casting or something like that, and it was just like, it looked like a Taylor Swift concert. It was just ridiculous. [00:58:37] Lauren O'Brien: cool. Woo-hoo. [00:58:39] Mike Cassara: like that was one probably my favorite movie of the nineties. [00:58:42] So I mean, like, geez, [00:58:43] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Fantastic movie. [00:58:44] Mike Cassara: yeah, [00:58:45] somebody that's dazed and dazed and confused shirt right now. It it, this was great. Happy Gillmore is like my childhood, though. [00:58:51] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.this has, this has been fantastic. This has been fantastic. I'm glad we're able to, to, to chat and get a lot of these [00:59:00] questions out there. And, I, I can't wait until we get the episode available for everybody to listen to, so it's gonna [00:59:07] be, it's gonna be good. So thank you both. why don't, one by one, Lauren, you go first. [00:59:11] Share where everybody can find your wedding photography. [00:59:16] Lauren O'Brien: sure. You can find me at Lauren O'Brien photo.com and Lauren O'Brien photo on Instagram if you're interested. I am the feral photog on TikTok. There's not much there, but you can find some stuff, Mike. [00:59:29] Mike Cassara: you can find me at Michael Cassara photo on Instagram, TikTok, as well as my website, and you can find us at the Vendor Table Pod on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, as well as our Facebook group that we have, as well as our podcast that's on Spotify, Apple, and anywhere you could download your podcast from. [00:59:47] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Sweet. [00:59:48] Thank you [00:59:48] both again for this. Awesome. Yes. Thank you for the awesome chat and yeah, we appreciate it. [00:59:55] Lauren O'Brien: Thanks for having us, Scott. It's always a pleasure. [01:00:00]