Show transcription
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: [00:00:00] so not to make you feel bad, but I've began that email for about, 10 years now.
Chris Denner: Keep swinging, champ. You'll get there one day.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, yeah,
Chris Denner: swinging a miss, swinging a miss. You gotta ask though. Listen, if you don't ask, you don't get, do you?
Chris Denner: Of course, of course, of course. ask, you gotta ask these things, aren't you?
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: [00:01:00] Chris Denner is a crime fighting vigilante who knows more Kung Fu than Bruce Lee. While that may not be true, it definitely sounds more interesting than simply calling him a wedding photographer. Chris is a wedding photographer who finds most weddings boring and cliche. It's true, but that is why he shines so bright in the wedding space.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Chris stands out among so many photographers in the sea. He crafted his business to be that way, attracting colorful, true and authentic weddings, which represents his own personality so well. If you want to hear from a person who says how it is, speaks from the heart and [00:02:00] absolutely loves what he does
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: then find your inspiration here. Let's dive into this conversation with my friend Chris Denner.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: okay, so, so, we're, we're just gonna get right into it, you know, I feel like we did, and I didn't even hit record yet, so now, so, but now we're, we're getting right into it. you know, it, it's funny, we didn't meet when we met, if, if you wanna call it that, right?
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: When, when, when I was in Copenhagen. And when you were in
Chris Denner: in the night. Ships in the night. We just waved.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Like, like I said, when, before we started recording, I was brand new to Imagen at the time I was very much like in my introverted shy zone. and I did see you and I know we did, we did stuff together and I was like, I, and immediately from like the informal meeting that we had, I, I was like, I like this guy, right?
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I like his work. I immediately looked up, looked up your work. and here's the thing is that. When you look at your work and that, this is why I think you did a fantastic job [00:03:00] with branding wise, my immediate impression before I read any of the words on your site, just from looking at your work and seeing you, and, and, getting to know your, your personality through like the, the, the one piece of video content you did at Copenhagen for Imagen, right?it's is, this is what's so interesting. The first word that comes to mind is RAW. And what's really funny is that you have that same word on your site that describes your, your work. And I was just like, that is like that. That just shows that branding wise, you did an amazing job to tell people exactly what they're getting from you when they hire you.
Chris Denner: Yeah, that's the point of branding, isn't it, really? It's, it's, it's a, it's a funny one. You mentioned that Scott, 'cause I'm actually going through a, a, a, not a rebrand at the minute, but as your listeners may or may not know, I've always traded off the, the [00:04:00] pseudonym, if you will, of Art is Annex. The reason for that is numerous and so boring to get into.
Chris Denner: But you know what? I just always thought. The business is bigger than me. The business has to be more, the business is about serving my client's needs. It's not about me. But you know what? Over the years as,as my legend, if you will, has grown people, have people just always call me c all my venues, all my recommended couples, and it's got to a point now where the Artisan XMP pseudonym.
Chris Denner: Is actually being a barrier to the market because people are actually being confused. because everyone connects with what you said, the blunt, the authenticity, the fun, the, you know, I am what I am, take it or leave it kind of attitude. And so I'm actually rebranding just as c Dena.artisan X will be, will continue, but that'll be more for my self initiated artistic projects.
Chris Denner: So I'm kind of dividing between what is, me in service of other people, which is the [00:05:00] weddings and then the art in service of me, which is the Artisan X. But it's funny you say about branding because yeah, it's such a key element and such a key part of a photographer's toolbox, and it's such a minefield and I don't understand how people traverse it.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Yeah, I, I, so I actually just had a similar conversation with Magic because he also has a very. Distinct, branding. Right. And we, we,
Chris Denner: Love that.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: had a conversation about, yeah, it was, it was also a great conversation and,
Chris Denner: He's, he was, he's literally, honestly, shout out to Magic. 'cause he's legit, he's literally been on my ass for years. About why are you not ct? Like, why are you not ctna? What's this artisan X nonsense. You are Christina. That's what you are. That's how I know you. And yeah, he won. So well done. Magic. He won. I will give you public kudos for that.
Chris Denner: Well done. And he's the same like he is. What you see is what you get. You know exactly what, before you even speak to the boy, you're like, right. Buckle in. This [00:06:00] is gonna be an interesting conversation because he is. He's exactly what it says on the tin. He is Magic in every possible way. So big shout out to him.
Chris Denner: 'cause he is, yeah. Fantastic human being and just like. Chef's kiss when it comes to photography. He's just superb.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Awesome. Yeah, well said. so, so let's dive into the, workflows conversation for a bit. I like to start out with the same question I ask everybody, which is,
What is one thing you do for the photographic process that has saved you time?
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Scott Wyden Kivowitz: what is one thing you do for the photographic process behind the camera that saves you time overall?
Chris Denner: it's. It took me a long TI mean, I've been a photographer now for 20, 26 years. I had to think about that. and obviously things have changed, technology changes, and one of the things I find that changes is obviously the rapid advance of technology. If you're not embracing it, then you know, you, you are onto a losser.
Chris Denner: When I first moved over to shooting digital, so it used to be a film photographer, we used to have like [00:07:00] one. One GB cards, you know, one gig cards. And that was seen as like, whoa, that is the, that is the
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: lot.
Chris Denner: Yeah. These micro drives, as they were called, were like, whoa, that's the, you know, the meme that's like, whoa, we've got a badass over there.
Chris Denner: That was the thing, like micro drive. And now, you know, everyone's blazing away at like 2, 5, 6 gig and. It's, so, so technology advances at such a rate. the one thing that I would say that saves me time is actually setting aside time to physically think about what I'm doing. Excuse me. As technology moves, I sort of find the time to take myself away every quarter just for a coffee in the morning and just sit down in my notebook and think, right, just because I'm doing this now.
Chris Denner: Doesn't mean it's the best way of doing it. How can I streamline things? How can I change things? what is available to me now that maybe wasn't available to me this time last year? And what is available to me now in terms of technology [00:08:00] or at a cost or at a price? can I incorporate this new Intel technology into my workflow by increasing my own cost to the client to cover it?
Chris Denner: so I would honestly say. Having a, a workflow that makes sense to you on paper is gold dust. That is the thing that I would recommend to every photographer. If you cannot explain to other photographers what your workflow is and how, why it works that way, I think you need to sit down with a pen and paper and just literally do a flow chart.
Chris Denner: Because I can break down my,my workflow. It's very boring. it's it's safety net after safety net. After safety net. But you know what? I never want to lose a client's photos. Ever
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Oh, yeah. Yeah. We might be, depending on timing, we might be getting to a breakdown of your workflow because,
Chris Denner: Oh yeah.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: it, it's
Chris Denner: people will doze off.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: you know, it, it, well, that's the funny thing is with, with each of these core episodes where we dive into the workflows is I ask [00:09:00] for an, whenever there's time I ask for an outline breakdown and you'd think that it might be boring, but at the same time, it's enlightening for so many people because it.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It makes you think, oh, what am I doing or not doing? And for, for yourself and for the listeners, it makes you think that and, and then could inspire to do, you know, something that isn't already
Chris Denner: Yeah, every day, every day's a school day. Every day. So my company motto, well, they have two. The first is normal is boring. Normal is boring. Is is the, is the foundation where I start from everything from my daft, middle aged mohawk, to my tattoos, to my personality, to everything. That's more of a personal ethos in terms of the business.
Chris Denner: My other meadow is be better. be better. Every day is a school day. We can always be better. We can always do better. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean we are bad. It just means that we can always learn and evolve and, and try and be a little bit better. [00:10:00] Certainly when I look at my workflows I was working with 10 years ago, they're completely different to how they are now.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Oh yeah. They have to evolve. They have to
Chris Denner: Oh, I've got to, you've got to. I mean, it just from the tech, the advance of technology alone. I mean, look at ImagenAI came into the industry, what, three to four years ago, and now you're just this monster force that everybody knows. Good on you. Kudos Well done.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So, so let, let's dive into the business side because you did kind of shift there a little bit. and now, so I am curious of
What is one thing you do for your business that has saved you time or money?
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Scott Wyden Kivowitz: what is one thing you do for the business that saves you time or money? And don't say, Imagen we will get to Imagen at some point.
Chris Denner: so I, I will prefix this, this start by saying if I do go off topic, Scott, drag me back on topic.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: it's,
Chris Denner: I can waffle. I could absolutely waffle. so what saves me time for the business more than anything? So, as a photographer and as an artist, I am incredibly economical with how I work. I've been doing it for 26 years.
Chris Denner: I [00:11:00] trained. As a film photographer and I shot film for years, and one of my most important roles post-College was to work in a portrait studio. And I always remember the lessons we learned there with film because we would get dragged over the coals by the bosses if we shot more than say, 50 frames of a client, more than 80 frames of a client, because we'd be expected to sell the imagery afterwards and sell the portraits afterwards.
Chris Denner: So I've always been very economical. I am not a photographer that goes out and blasts, oh. You know, you know, 60,000 Imageners at a wedding. Now, fair plate of photographers that do that. Good for you. One thing that I will always do is step back, and look for the shot rather than a spray and pray approach.
Chris Denner: I will always step back, look for the shot. I know my way of working as well. So generally, if I'm particularly, 'cause my work's quite creative and [00:12:00] documentary. So once I've seen an idea. As soon as I've got it, maybe three photos I move. I don't just hang around, I don't just blast 50 frames of the same scene and Editing wise as well, because I work that way.
Chris Denner: I pretty much know when I'm calling and Editing the last frame of that scene is the one that I'm gonna want to keep.yeah, I know it's a really unpopular opinion, but I would rather be present. With my camera up ready to go. Looking for the, looking for the story, looking for that intimate moment, looking for this, what's going on, rather than,
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.
Chris Denner: you know, just firing, firing, firing.
Chris Denner: That's just not me. And I don't know if it's because that's how I trained from an economical point of view or because I just feel it's better to be present looking for something. Look for the story. Click move because as soon as you've got that story. There's another one happening, there's something else.
Chris Denner: So [00:13:00] that's the one thing that I would say from a business point of view has made as, has helped my workflows, is being conscious and being present at a wedding. and just being focused on what I want to create or thinking, am I getting this in camera? Rather than thinking, you know what, I'll just shoot loads of photos and I'll see what I get in the edit, which I can't stand that phrase.
Chris Denner: Can't stand it.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It, it's interesting. In the past, I know three minutes, you, you've, you've, you've covered my first three questions. I think this is great because, it's, it's, they all flow into each other, which I think is a beautiful thing. You talked about, immediately you talked about how you need to know your workflows and also be willing to adapt, and change and learn.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so knowing your workflows and slowing down, stepping back, taking the time to really capture the moment,
Chris Denner: Slow everything down.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. And then my next question [00:14:00] was gonna be what
What is one thing you do for editing that has saved you time or money?
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Scott Wyden Kivowitz: on the, has saves you, saved you time on the, on the Editing side? And it sounds like it's knowing your workflow, the way that you work, that that last frame in that series of four photos is the one that you're Editing pretty much, you know that
Chris Denner: Generally, more or less only because I don't allow myself to move on to the next story. Or the next chapter, I always refer to 'em as like, it's the next chapter in the book. It's the next chapter. You know, the narrative in particularly, 'cause weddings is like, and then what happened? And then what happened, and then what happened.
Chris Denner: So I don't really allow myself to move on. I mean, you know, sometimes if you see a spontaneous moment between guests and you, you whatever, whatever reason, you don't quite get it. If it doesn't reoccur, no problem. Just move on. There'll be something else. Because in my head. You know what? If I'm waiting for something to happen, there's probably something behind me happening that looks brilliant.
Chris Denner: So I'm very conscious of [00:15:00] moving very, very quickly. I always have a bit of a rule, like if I can three and move three and move three and move, I keep walking, I check my, watch at the end of a wedding. And it's you. And it's ridiculous. Like my daily footsteps are bonkers. you know, good footwear is essential to be a great photographer, I believe.
Chris Denner: Gotta be able to move fast.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Do you have go-tos? Do you have a Go-to shoe? For, for, for those long days.
Chris Denner: Timbaland's all day and night. Yeah. Timbaland's, I, I own so many pair of Tims. It's, I have a, a, a fancy pair, an everyday pair, a dog walking pair, a gardening pair, two different types of work pairs. I mean, I'm not even sponsored by Timberland, but I just love their boots.
Chris Denner: They're just, especially in winter, like their boots keep you nice and warm and dry. And I'm a very physical photographer. Like I move a lot. I, I'm, I'm, I'm there in service of a couple. so if I want the shot and I have to crash through a, through a waterlogged. [00:16:00] Flower bed. Yeah, I'll do it. And it's quite common for me in winter to reemerge from the night portraits covered in mud.
Chris Denner: And you know what? My couples love it. They think it's hilarious because you know what? I'm there in service of them. That's really important distinction. I am there to tell their story, and that's why I
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: You're willing to, you're willing to get your hands dirty literally,
Chris Denner: absolutely. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you were to speak to some of my brides and grooms or couples about any of the non, the stupid things I've done Oh my days.
Chris Denner: Yeah. It's quite common. I even take literally a pair of trainers in the car now to get changed into, to drive home. 'cause it's quite commonly my boots are caked in mud or I've spilt something down them, or generally anything like I'm, you know what? I always. Try and remember why I'm there. I'm there at the wedding to be in service of the couple and to get the shots I want.
Chris Denner: I am more interested in focusing on them, and I have to, if I have to walk through something, [00:17:00] whatever, I'll just crash through it. That's me. I'm not the photographer that turns up in beautiful, wing tips with a bespoke tweed suit. That's not me at all because I can't do what I do. 'cause I'm very, like I said, I'm very physical as a photographer.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Have you ever met Jonathan Suckling?
Chris Denner: No.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: No. So, when we're done, I'm gonna send you a, a, a, his a I'll send you his website, but also a video of him on YouTube. He's gone viral many times because he is also the type of wedding photographer where he is literally doing roles and jumps and
Chris Denner: Oh, I think I have seen, I think I have seen, has he got long hair?
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Sometimes yes. Typically, yeah.
Chris Denner: I think I have seen him. Yeah. And I think, you know, in a lot of ways because of the style of photography I do as well. So you know, like this box that's midrange, you know, the bullseye photography, I tend to stay away from that. So I'm either shooting up or I'm shooting low or I'm shooting through tables or glassware.
Chris Denner: You know, if you're running up to a table to shoot [00:18:00] through a couple of glasses that are just stood there. 'cause you can see a lovely couple. In the background, having a, a moment, the number of times I've ran up to a table, not seeing the glass of champagne, someone's left on the floor and booted it across the courtyard practically every wedding.
Chris Denner: It, you know, it, it's a hazard. I'm just a hazard. But I don't know any other way to, to work because I like to really immerse myself in in weddings. I mean, I know a lot of documentary photographers, they really pride themselves on the discreet nature of what they do. Awesome. Not really for me. I, my approaches fly on the wall, but on the day I'm anything but I'm really robust.
Chris Denner: and I'm just kind of very present with my couples. To the extent of whenever, when I get all my feedback from the couples and I get my reviews, all of them mentioned like, oh my God. He was just like, he was everything, everything we could want all day. You know, like friend, mentor, advisor, therapists, sometimes God, you know, even broke up fights at weddings.
Chris Denner: That's, you are there as you are there to be a part of the day, but [00:19:00] from their point of view you are a part of it as well. So I'm very hands-on.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. It definitely seems like, in your, in your work, you've got some where you are further away. And it is more documenting, but then a lot of it is like, you're right up in there.
Chris Denner: Yeah, like I love a confetti photo. Like that's one of my favorite things. It's, if you think about it, it's like one of the, the best participation where you've got everybody doing something. My confetti photos 16 mil right in front of the couple. I really work the crowd up before they come out.
Chris Denner: I tell them exactly what I want them to do. I've worked with the couples before the weddings to brief them as to why they should buy colorful confetti, how much to buy. I then tell the crowd and the like people that are there, this is how I want you to throw it. This is how I want you to do. And, and I always say before we do the cafe, now the bride and the, the couple have just got married.
Chris Denner: Let's make some hella noise. By this point I'm shouting, jumping up and down. You've got a hundred lunatics ready to get the hands [00:20:00] on the free drinks. Hands of confetti. And I say to anybody, if you go through my Instagram, you'll, you'll see my confetti photos. And I love it getting really into it, really immediate, intimate.
Chris Denner: I, you know, some, you know, some imagery will be stepped back. that's sometimes the nature of what I'm trying to create. But a lot of it, I really want to get as close to the subject as I can to get that intimacy and that connection with them.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Awesome. so.
What is one thing you do after a session that has increased business?
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Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Let's shift a little bit, fast forward a little bit and talk about what happens after a wedding. what is one thing you do after that has, increased business, for example?
Chris Denner: Hmm. Well, it. I guess it it not to be boring and I'm so sorry to say this listeners, but, it is all about workflow. having a very synced and [00:21:00] I guess nuanced workflow helps. So for me, when I leave a wedding, I say goodbye to my couples. I always say goodbye to the mums and dads and the grandparents and the, you know, the bridal parties because I've made friends with them on the day.
Chris Denner: I, you know, I'm very, I'm, you know, so I get home, and this is gonna sound like massive overkill. The first thing is Backup. I. that's the most important thing that, you know, post wedding I'm going to do. So, po you know, my cameras shoot, shoot. Sony a nine. Twos great. Cameras very robust. I've dropped them, smashed them.
Chris Denner: I've done so much stupid stuff to those cameras, but they keep coming back from all, so they're awesome. so dual camera. So straight away. As soon as I'm home, I've got two sets of, of the photography. I then back that up onto two hard drives.I then back that up onto two SSDs as well. and then as that's all happening, that is being mirrored to a Cloud Backup as well.
Chris Denner: [00:22:00] the thing that I do from a workflow perspective, which may surprise a lot of photographers is during the meal service, I will cull the first part of the wedding. So in the uk you traditionally have say 90 minutes.because I know how I've shot, because I know what my style is, I will call the first part of that wedding.
Chris Denner: So by the time I'm home after the wedding, everything's being backed up. The morning after the wedding, when I wake up, I always set my alarm for five 30, I'm up, check my backups, everything's fine. Check my cloud, everything's fine. What I do then is the remainder of the wedding post the meal. Or the wedding breakfast is, I then call the remainder of the wedding and that's when ImagenAI comes into play because you actually another layer of my Backup with the Cloud Storage, great feature.
Chris Denner: it just means the morning after a wedding. I've got two clouds. I've got, I've got with the cards, six [00:23:00] physical copies. Of the work as well. And when I'm Editing and working, it's always off. One of the SSDs, the other SSD, the portable hard drive. If people don't know what that is, it's a little portable head drive that just gets hidden in the house under a floorboard.
Chris Denner: so if I am ever broken into, yeah, I did it under, under, hide it under the floorboard, ev all my hard drives are hidden anyway, under a false panel somewhere. But if someone does find them and they take them, I mean, who steals hard drives. It has happened though. Yeah, I do know a photographer. It's happened to where someone broke into her studio, stole her hard drives.
Chris Denner: I mean, you'd be devastated, wouldn't
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.
Chris Denner: so the morning after a wedding, I am by 9:00 AM The couple are receiving their Previews. I. They usually receive about 15 Imageners from me. The reason I always do it before 9:00 AM at the absolute latest is because traditionally, I dunno if this is true of other countries in the uk, couples will stay over at the venue.
Chris Denner: They get up the next day, they see their mums and dads, they see the bridal [00:24:00] party, they see the grandparents, of course. What have they got? They've got their photos on their phone, haven't they? Oh, mom, look at this. Look at what Kris has sent us over already. Oh, dad, have you seen this photo here? It's being shared immediately.
Chris Denner: within that, environment, I also text photos to the couple and I actually physically text them to say, thanks for having me. Thanks for looking after me. Here's some photography. You've got 20 Imageners. managing people's expectations as well, is one thing that I do pre-wedding and then immediately post wedding by telling them about how long their gallery delivery is gonna be.
Chris Denner: that they can pre-register for the gallery, that there'll be a discount on print if they encourage their friends and family to pre-register. I, it's a weird one. If I'm, years ago I learned a lot about how to do business from my years in the portrait studio, mostly about how not to do business because you know, it, it was a portrait studio.
Chris Denner: It's, they're very mercenary. They're there about selling. But the guy who ran it, [00:25:00] he literally said to me, you know what? You start selling and you start working out what your clients want before you've even taken the photo. And he would, as people would come into his portrait studio. We would walk down the walls and he would have pictures everywhere and he'd say, oh, so this is a 30 by 20.
Chris Denner: And most people take that on a canvas. Oh, this is a, this is a 30 by 10 panoramic. Most people take that shots of the kids and then he'd shoot the session. And lo and behold, Scott, when people came back to buy the, to view the photos, they'd end up taking the 30 by 20 as a canvas. They'd take the 30 by 10 as the panoramic because he had managed their expectations. So that's something that I've took from him, from a customer service point of view that, you know, very, I don't have any problems with my clients. Like, very rarely does anything come up where I'm like, Ooh, that's a bit of a problem. generally because I like to always let them know where they stand and yeah, so it, that's probably the thing that I would say enables [00:26:00] me to build my business because majority of my work comes through referrals and recommendations.
Chris Denner: I've had two bookings last week and that was. Again, from people who would be connected to the bride, that saw me from years ago and like, Hey, I'm getting married this date, love you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Are you free? because I've made these connections with people, and also again, from a technology point of view, it's never been easier.
Chris Denner: There are, there are lots of platforms and companies out there that make it so easy to share your galleries. if photographers are not sharing their galleries, you, you, you know, you really are missing out on a trick. I don't understand why, why would I want just my couple to look at my wedding photos, their, their wedding photos?
Chris Denner: I want all their friends and family to look at them.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right?
Unlocking the Power of Personalized Communication in Photography
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Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yep. Yeah. And a lot, all these platforms, they all allow you to. Do the email register, so that way you're getting, you're also getting those leads that you can then market to and,
Chris Denner: And they make it easy for you. They, they even give you automations.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so, some of them will even [00:27:00] connect to text messaging or WhatsApp. Some of them, are only email.
Chris Denner: but like the fact that you can go ahead and say, okay, I'm going to, you know, potentially whatever platform you're using, I'm gonna automate the emails too. To the couple and then their families, but then I'm gonna manually take the time and send a more personal text message to the couples.that's key. It is got to be both. It it, again, I always come back to like what I am in service to my couple. And the reality is, yes, I want to send them 20 beautiful photos that I want them to download and share around the breakfast table. But you know what most couples wake up with probably a little bit of a hangover, having had barely any sleep, right?
Chris Denner: So if I text it to them with a lovely little message. That's probably gonna break through more than an email. Also, the morning after a wedding. Come on, people, I mean, I love the fact that our, our, our couples have these things, these Previews, but they've probably got like a [00:28:00] thousand WhatsApps or probably a thousand emails.
Chris Denner: Like I, I don't get upset if I don't hear back from my couples. All I know is that I have fulfilled. My obligation to them and giving them something like absolutely fantastic first thing in the morning. Most couples come back to me immediately and, you know, that's how you start building the relationship into the next chapter, post wedding, which is, you know, gallery delivery, resales, albums, and then referrals, and obviously reviews, recommendations and things like that.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Awesome. And so when you are, when you're talking about, you know, building these expectations, you're telling them ahead of time that, you know, you could expect a, a text message from me the day after the wedding with some Previews, or is that a surprise for them?
Chris Denner: No, I always tell them by that point, in the run up to the wedding, we'll have, most couples go for a pre-shoot with me. Always recommend that to couples. And then the, a month before the wedding, they'll have a zoom with me. Then generally the week of the wedding will be in touch in some way. and then I always call them the day before the wedding, and then I text them on the [00:29:00] morning of the wedding to say, Hey, just to reiterate again for like the fifth time, this is where I'm starting.
Chris Denner: This is what time I'm starting. By that point, they're so used to seeing my name flash up on their phone that it's kind of just a con you, you just kind of continuing, I will say this to, to your listeners, don't do these things cold. Don't just text your client and if you've never text them before, don't just WhatsApp them if you've never watched 'em before.
Chris Denner: Like you really have to build the relationship because. You want to cut through the morning after a wedding because Yeah. I, I just, I, I could just Imagen that look on someone's face
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I mean, I, I would say that, that that rule kind of goes for no matter what the type of photography, for the most part. I mean, if you're a studio photographer and you only do studio, studio and people walk into the door, obviously that's a little different. But, like, so I do a lot of, surprise proposals and.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I am always texting when I, when we're planning the whole [00:30:00] thing back and forth with the clients over and over and over again to get every little detail down so that there are no issues in that, in that moment. And, and even when the, I have a whole thing where I, I do with the client where, I say, text me with the letter P when you're parking, w when you're walking, like, I've got a whole thing.
Chris Denner: make it idiot proof. Make it idiot. I mean, I've started over the years as well, like really, especially on the Zooms and the pre-wedding questionnaires, breaking it down, idiot proof, and just being that photographer that's like, okay, guys, awkward question time. Now. What's the deal with the parents? Any animosity at the wedding, any uncles and aunties gonna be fighting with each other.
Chris Denner: Anybody, and, and then you branch off from that because let's face it, as photographers, we need to know this. I then branch off from that into a more of a personal point. And I say, look, anybody with any disabilities, anybody, with any issues that I need to know about any [00:31:00] epileptics, anything like that.
Chris Denner: All of this, you are wrapping it up in a bundle of care. And then the last thing I've started introducing the last couple of years, which is not very relevant, but when it is relevant, is very important. Anybody at the wedding that identifies as non-traditional, I. So that, are they non-binary? Is there anybody there?
Chris Denner: 'cause the last thing I want to do is walk in, in the spur of the moment, all excited, shooting away, and you use the wrong pronoun. Or you just slip up and then you're like, oh my God. How
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: You know, I'm glad you brought that up. So, months before that this episode airs, there was a, an event here in New Jersey in the, in the US where I live, called Focused AF Summit. It was the first of its of first annual.Imagen was one of the sponsors and. One of the speakers, the speaker's name, photographer's name was Ryland and Ryland's entire talk was about that, was about how do you approach that, that, that topic [00:32:00] as a photographer and what's appropriate and not appropriate.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It was very interesting,
Chris Denner: You just ask in my experience, just ask. I shot a wedding 2021 where the, so this is an interesting one. The bride identified as a bride, but identified as non-binary, and they had changed their name in the rule up to the wedding. So their name was different to the name on the booking form because in that 18 month period they had decided.
Chris Denner: That they were, they didn't want to be a binary gender. absolutely brilliant wedding. And as you can Imagen, full of people that were identified as this, identified as that. And you know what? On the run up to the wedding, I really dug in deep with the couple to understand their needs. And even on the day, found myself having conversations with guests and even on the day I made mistakes.
Chris Denner: I slipped up generally [00:33:00] because I use, sayings like, oh, hey guys. Right? Just, just guys. Right? And I don't mean anything by it, and I don't mean anything by it,
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right.
Chris Denner: in the wrong context it could potentially be upsetting. And in that situation, you go, my bad. There was NI didn't mean to do it, but I can only apologize and I will try and be better.
Chris Denner: That whole wedding opened my eyes about how we can be better because you know what? Using the same titles and pronouns and just assuming everything, nah, it, it, it, it's not appropriate anymore. So, yeah, in the run up to the wedding. Now, like I said, most weddings it isn't, it doesn't, it doesn't really matter because you say anybody there that identifies in a particular way.
Chris Denner: Anything I need to know about? No, no, not really. And you know, you'll say anybody of any disabilities and they always say, oh yeah, the best, best man's a bit of an idiot. You know that that's, but that's about it. But you know what though? I have asked these questions and they've gone, you know [00:34:00] what, Chris?
Chris Denner: Glad you asked that. My mom's in a wheelchair. Oh right. Brilliant. And I says up, I understand that. 'cause my mom's disabled. I get it. So what we're gonna do, ah, now that you've told me that your mum is in a wheelchair, I'm gonna rethink the group photography because I don't wanna find myself in a position where I'm trying to do, say they asked for a group photo.
Chris Denner: You've got 80 guests. How do you think mum's gonna feel when she's pushed out of the, you know, the venue to go outside to get the group photo? She sees 80 group, every 80 people stood on the grass waiting for her to be pushed over. She's probably gonna feel pretty bad, right? Probably gonna feel a bit embarrassed, probably feel like, oh, I don't really wanna be the center of attention.
Chris Denner: It's my daughter's day, what have you. And by them telling me that I was able to talk to the mum, talk to the dad, talk to her side of the family, we worked out the way to manage it. So the mum was included in every single photo, and it just, it didn't even, it felt effortless. It felt, because usually like, you know, group [00:35:00] fo, everyone's like, group fo, let's just go for the location.
Chris Denner: That's the biggest. That's, you know, in the shade where we can the easiest for everybody. But that location that's easiest for everybody may not be the one that's easiest for the person in the wheelchair. So I ended up shooting in a different location where, you know what I would never have thought to shoot there.
Chris Denner: Turned out brilliant. Absolutely loved the photos. So it goes back to my earlier point. We can always be better. I could always be a little bit better.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: a hundred
Chris Denner: I feel like I've gone off on like tangent. Off
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. No, it's good. It is good. There's a lot of stuff that, is. Like this, these topics are rarely talked about. So it's, it's fantastic. I'm gonna go into my favorite part of the episode. Pick a color
Chris Denner: It's gotta be orange.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: orange. Okay.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I think, I think magic pick green. I'm gonna thumb through it and you gonna tell me when
Chris Denner: quite okay. stop.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Okay. My next question [00:36:00] is.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Oh, you got this made. What's the first impression you want to give people?
Chris Denner: that I understand them.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Well said.
Chris Denner: That I understand them. I mean, is that broadly in a business sense or in a
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Whatever you want. Whatever you want.
Chris Denner: you know what? I'm gonna go with that because you know what, when people approach me and talk to me and they talk,
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Mm-Hmm.
Chris Denner: we want to be understood. I, I always say the worst thing you can do to a person is just ignore them. And that's just, I think, the most dehumanizing and most horrible thing you can do to someone. when people talk to me, I want, hopefully I want them to under, to feel that they've been understood and that I've listened partis. So throw it into a business sense. at the end of the day, we're, we are creative problem solvers for our couples.
Chris Denner: The problem is they're getting married. So the, the, [00:37:00] the, they are getting married. The problem is they don't want boring, normal wedding photography. Oh, here's Chris. We found his work online. Oh, he seems nice. He's got great reviews. Let's talk to Chris. So during that first zoom, it's really important to me that I say to 'em like, I am listening.
Chris Denner: I'm here for you. If I don't feel this is a good fit, I will tell you. but I am here to help and solve your problems. that's really, isn't that really what we all want just to be understood. Just think how, how much nicer the world would be if everybody listened to each other a little bit more, says the guy that talks over everybody.
Chris Denner: So anybody that listens to this will think, oh my god, Chris, you're such a hypocrite.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Oh, that's great. Let's, let's pivot now as we get closer to the end of the episode. Let's pivot to, talk about AI for a second. now you're using ai, and we, again, we will get to Imagen in a, in a moment, but,
What does the future of AI in photography look like to you?
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Scott Wyden Kivowitz: what does the future of AI and photography look like to you?[00:38:00]
Chris Denner: I honestly don't know. I obviously there's, well, there's the obvious things, like it will make my life easier.it will make, I. The final product better, in my opinion. So I'm just gonna go with a broad blanket explanation of, of why I've said that. So I speak to photographers and some of them are super negative about ai, Editing like you wouldn't believe, and they, it's just like, you know what?
Chris Denner: Just they climb on their high horse and they look down on me and I'm like. I don't give a shit what they think of me because you know what? The final product is better. I'll tell you why. Because when I get my edit back, I am still spending the same amount of time on that edit. But what I'm actually doing is I'm just polishing.
Chris Denner: I'm doing the bits that I would never have had the time to do before. I am digging in deeper [00:39:00] to remove signage, things from the background. And whilst I don't do a lot of cosmetic changes in my photography, that's kind of a bit of a slippery slope with me. I will find the time to do things for couples that are gonna be they, that they are going to find pleasing, you know, tidying up bits of hair.
Chris Denner: Things like that. if there's a stain on the groom shirt, I'll be removing that. Whereas before, because I shoot a lot, I mean, I dunno if your listeners are aware of this. I shoot a lot of weddings a year. Last year I shot 68 weddings,
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: A lot.
Chris Denner: like 68 and that's full day weddings. I would not have been able to do that workload if it wasn't for ai.
Chris Denner: I stand by my finished product. I shot 68 weddings last year. I had 68. Couples who were incredibly happy with their galleries. 68 people have all left me five star Google reviews and Facebook reviews. So this isn't like me being like the Wizard of Oz and saying, oh, it's all [00:40:00] aca. Don't look here, look over there.
Chris Denner: No. AI improves my business because it gives me the time to actually physically shoot more, but it also gives me a better finished product. The thing that after years, I do not want to be sitting at Lightroom adjusting the white balance of every photo. I. I just don't want to be doing it if I don't have to.
Chris Denner: I would much rather be thinking, how can I crop this in a cool, creative way? How can I re, what can I do with this? What can I do with that? Oh, actually, that's re distracting in the background. I'm just gonna remove that and edit that completely. So
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Where, whereas before, you may not have spent the time because you didn't have the time to do it.
Chris Denner: all the
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: more difficult ones, for example.
Chris Denner: all the willpower. You know, if you've, if you've looked at a collection for like 30, 40 hours, you're like, you know what? Be because my expectation was, you know what? I'm just gonna put, you know, you know, five, six years ago, and I'm not saying my work five, six years ago was, was, was, was of a poor quality.
Chris Denner: 'cause it wasn't. But what [00:41:00] my attitude to what my finished product was five, six years ago was maybe here now it's here because I'm starting from a place that's so many steps in front. And I'll be honest as well, I've already touched on it. AI just gets rid of the boring crap that I really don't want to do, and I trust it so implicitly.
Chris Denner: so you know what all you photographers that, look down on all of us photographers use ai. You have fun with your white balance sliders, guys. You just, you just carry on doing that. I'm going be doing far more fun, creative stuff. You just have fun with your white balances.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Nice.speaking of the fun, boring stuff. No, the not fun, boring stuff. so,
How did Imagen impact your life?
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Scott Wyden Kivowitz: how did Imagen impact your life?
Chris Denner: you kind of just touched on a lot, but,
Chris Denner: to be honest, I'd never even thought of ai. I. I, I, I, I, when it first came out, I tried it and then decided not [00:42:00] for me, but that's maybe more of the traditionalist in me. And then, I mean, but when it came out, I think we then went through Covid and I was a bit like, Hmm. I wasn't shooting, so I kind of took a step back anyway.
Chris Denner: And then obviously when, when, not that Covid ever went away, but we moved past restrictions and, the world became, as we knew it.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Mm-Hmm.
Chris Denner: I found myself in a position where I was like, you know what? I'd be interested to, to give this a whirl and I will say this to anybody, and I'm, you're not paying me to say this.
Chris Denner: So prefix this, this statement. anybody thinking of using AI that doesn't try it, you, but with the caveat that you have to invest the time to get it up and running. There's so many photographers I talk to that go, oh God. 50,000 photos or a hundred thousand photos or whatever it is, 10,000, I don't know.
Chris Denner: And people go, oh, I can't be bothered with that. Oh. I'm like, well, look, look, look. You are missing out then because if you cannot be bothered to set up your profile, [00:43:00] AI's not gonna know what you're doing because all AI is, is you. It's an extension of you. It's a tool for you. It's there in service of you.
Chris Denner: And if you can't be bothered to give it the correct information, it's just not gonna be very good. It's not gonna work for you. So ImagenAI is fundamentally giving me a better product. And let's face it, let's face it, it's given me way more time. And it's given me security. that may sound like a weird thing to say, but the, I'll tell you now, the morning after a wedding when I've done my call and I brought the Imageners into Lightroom, and then it's with Imagen slowly percolating, getting edited, and I also see that little bar with the Cloud Storage go up as well.
Chris Denner: I'm like, yes, yes. I can relax now and I can go about my Sunday or Saturday business safe in the knowledge that it's just ano you're just another safety net. I. You're just another safety net. And also, yeah, I, I would say it has impacted my life. In, in, in, there's been, there's been no [00:44:00] negatives that there just, there just hasn't been.
Chris Denner: And the one thing I would say to photographers that are always saying, oh, you know, there's this and there's that, there's cheaper this. And oh, it costs this money. Increase your prices
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Mm-Hmm.
Chris Denner: increase your prices. If, it's, it's a business expense.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yep.
Chris Denner: It is a business expense, and that's how I see it. It's for me, it's essential Now.
Chris Denner: Absolutely essential.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Awesome. Well said. so Chris, you, you mentioned this way earlier. I know you're in the process of rebranding. This episode might come out after the rebrand, so I will make sure I have the, the, the, you know, all the links in the show notes. But can you please share with the listeners, where they can learn more about you, connect with you, and of course, see your incredible photography.
Chris Denner: Okay, brilliant. So at the minute the website is artisan x photography.co uk. However, in a month's time it will be Chris dena.co uk. I was like, I dunno why. I was like, oh yeah, I'll just do Chris Dena photography, and I'm like, why put the extra word [00:45:00] in, just make it really simple like these barriers to market.
Chris Denner: Everything about my branding is like there's no barriers. You know, you can, you can really, I'm approachable, I'm here for you. So it might be chrisdenner.com. actually, if you go to the Artisan X photography one, it will redirect you to the new one. So your listeners are in for a treat. However, you know, my Instagram is, artisan.photography. I'm also on Facebook. Like everyone's on Facebook, aren't they? and then obviously as a, as a photographer, obviously I'm out there. I also speak at conferences. I see your gang at all the conferences, and we always have good fun. Yeah, I always get, I always get some free coffees.
Chris Denner: It's always good. It's always really good. Always. Zoe always buys me a croissant as well. It's always good. Yeah. I like, like, I like your hustle, you know, just give me patisseries and coffee and I'm on your team. Yeah. I'm easily bought. I'm so, I'm so cheap. I'm so cheap. Yeah. And yeah, that, I mean, the thing is for me, like Instagram for me, [00:46:00] so Instagram, I always separate two things.
Chris Denner: There's a community and then there's a market. I never really view Instagram as a market because I always find it quite a cluttered marketplace. I find it a massive room where everyone's shouting. So I would advise people to follow me on Instagram because you know what? I will be showing the work that I want to show.
Chris Denner: I don't care if it gets two likes. I don't care if it gets 200 likes. I will be showing work that I think connects with people. So I would say the Instagram.
Chris Denner: I think that your Instagram, so I have it open on another screen. I'm literally scrolling as I, as I say these words. I mentioned early on that RAW is what came to mind when I first looked at your work and, and indirectly met you. Yeah. Ships in the ships in the night, got ships
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. Yeah. And, I think that your, the way you've, the way that you've put your Instagram feed is a good mix of traditional wedding.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Your creative wedding, and then your RAW wedding work is all mixed in here. [00:47:00] So it's a really good place for people to really see what you do
Chris Denner: It's, it's the industry saying, show what you wanna shoot.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.
Chris Denner: And that the reality is I show what I want to shoot. I show things. 'cause as my career gradually migrates into being that of an educator and a speaker, you want to educate people. So obviously every, all photographers follow everybody like a, like a daisy chain, don't they?
Chris Denner: Everyone who follows everybody. So it's nice community and show what you wanna shoot. I like shooting stuff that's like really intimate, brash, colorful. And just fun. I, I am not one of these photographers that I, I can't think of anything worse than looking at someone's wedding photos and thinking, gosh, that looks boring. Gosh, that's boring. I can't see anything in that photo. And listen, trends come and go. Scott, don't get me on trends 'cause I will just rant and rant and rant whatever trend is happening at the minute. You can probably describe my work as being the opposite end of the [00:48:00] spectrum.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, but I think right now it's, what is it? It's the, the intentional blur and the direct flash has come back.
Chris Denner: Yeah. Yeah. But then, but yeah, but you've got, you've got,
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: more power to the people who are doing it, but you know, it's not for
Chris Denner: yeah, but you've missed out an important part. So there'd be direct flash. Either slightly overexposed or underexposed with mo, with intentional MO movement, and then they'll use the words, looks wedding high-end wedding photography, or Vogue wedding and like that's the trinity.
Chris Denner: That's the Trinity Direct flash movement. Looks Vogue, high-end wedding photography. And I'm just like, whatever. You know what? Like you say, good for you. That's not my market. It's not my crowd. Listen, if I went out to a wedding and shot a bunch of photos where things are outta focus, my couples have gone, gone mad.
Chris Denner: That's not what they booked me for. And if your couples are booking you for that, more power to you. But let's see what your style is in two years time, when it, when it changes.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Awesome. Thank you so much, Chris,
Chris Denner: No, it's been a pleasure,
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: all this. [00:49:00] it's, yeah. There's so many great takeaways for everybody, to, to walk away from and, and hopefully I.you've, I'm sure you've inspired many to, to, to go out there and try new things and to really dial in their workflow and get to know what they do,
Chris Denner: Abso. Well, I hope so. And the one thing I would say to all your listeners is do give me a follow on the Instagram, which is artisan photography. And you know what? There are no barriers to me. So if anybody wants to DM me if anybody's got any questions, I. Just DM me, drop me a message. I literally, I talk to photographers all the time.
Chris Denner: I'm. I'm here as part of a community, you know, obviously Yes. I'm a presenter at conferences and I, you know, I go out and present it, you know, way up north and Grain and Elevate and blah, blah, blah. Not WPPI yet though, you know, they swing and a miss Chris swing and a miss. But I will have you do WPPI one day.
Chris Denner: I'm like Wayne's World with his guitar. It's Stratocaster. It's like she will be mine. She will be mine. yeah, just draw me a dm. Just get in touch and if you've got questions about anything Yeah, just get in touch. I'm, I could, you know, I'll fire you a quick message [00:50:00] back.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Awesome.
