Photography in Public Spaces: Safety Precautions and Awareness for Photographers with Vanessa Joy

[00:00:00] Vanessa Joy: I am gonna sneeze at some point. Okay. You just keep that in. It's fine​ [00:00:06] Vanessa joy is a distinguished photographer with over [00:01:00] 20 years of experience in capturing the essence of events, portraits, and marketing projects. Her remarkable work has graced publications like Yahoo News, Grace Ormonde, and Style Me Pretty. And she's collaborated with renowned companies like Bravo, Canon and Hilton. Vanessa is a celebrated Canon Explorer of light, an honor reserved for a handful of wedding photographers in the U S. And she's an author of four books on photography and business. [00:01:29] As a devoted mother and former Spanish teacher, she brings a unique, practical approach to her craft. Impacting hundreds of thousands of photographers with her engaging, educational content. Now strap in because this conversation, while we start out light. It talks about a very, very important conversation. That we believe should be talked about way more in the photography industry. So. Like I [00:02:00] said, hold on tight. [00:02:01] Here we go. [00:02:02] Introduction and Casual Conversation --- [00:02:02] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Hey, Vanessa, as you're taking a sip, [00:02:07] Vanessa Joy: I'm like, get the last sip in. You know, it's tea, it's usually coffee, but I just wanted something warm. And most importantly, to have my logo present 'cause it matches my background. [00:02:17] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It does it. You are very, you're, you're very light and airy today. [00:02:21] Vanessa Joy: I am, I am, I transformed the whole office to be light and airy, even though I, I don't think that's my style of photography. I hope, well, not that I hope not. I just, I don't think it is. So I hope my thoughts of my own photography match what the perception of my photography is, is what I'm really trying to say. Yeah. But I do like my, my space to be light Mary. [00:02:41] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. [00:02:42] Vanessa Joy: makes me happier. [00:02:43] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I would love to brighten up my, my world down here in my basement, but,~ uh,~ it's very long. My, my, my, it's very long. [00:02:53] Vanessa Joy: That makes [00:02:54] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So, so it's like, what am I gonna do? I got this rolling cart back here that I load up with [00:03:00] cameras and I just black out everything behind it and I'm good. [00:03:02] Vanessa Joy: go. [00:03:03] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So, gotta do what you gotta do. [00:03:04] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~so we're gonna have a very,~ um, ~ ~uh, ~I think it's gonna be a fairly deep conversation about something that happened to you and,~ um,~ and, ~um. ~Rob. Rob was with you, right? Rob was with you. Your,~ um,~ your model, your model's husband, who I think was there, [00:03:18] Vanessa Joy: husband was there, Rob was there. It really is phenomenal that it even happened at all with all the large male presence. [00:03:26] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, yeah. We're, we're gonna have a, we're gonna first before we get into like actually what happened,~ um,~ I'm gonna ask you two other questions. [00:03:34] Discussing the Challenges of Being a Photographer --- [00:03:34] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~so what is one of the hardest lessons that you have had to learn? When you first got into into photography. [00:03:43] Vanessa Joy: I'm gonna go with that. Being a photographer is not necessarily about photography. That's a hard lesson. That's a hard lesson for a lot of us to realize that it's so much about business and creating a client experience. Now [00:04:00] styling yourself to match your whatever brand you wanna be, and there's so many other things. [00:04:07] Vanessa Joy: I just posted something on Instagram today talking about how being a successful photographer has like nothing to do with your great camera, or how many followers you have, or how good your pictures are. There are way too many starving artists out there. It's all about how you run your business. You know, your clients don't remember the pictures you took as much as they'll remember how long it took you to deliver them. [00:04:30] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Mm-Hmm. [00:04:31] Vanessa Joy: Things like that. [00:04:32] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Nice. ~Um.~ [00:04:32] Vanessa Joy: hard lesson. [00:04:33] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: That is a, that is a good lesson. Speaking of lessons, I, I just got an impromptu question I did not plan for that somehow popped into my head. ~Um, ~so you grew up in New Jersey and you now live in Texas [00:04:47] Vanessa Joy: I do. [00:04:48] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: and, but you're, you're still coming back and forth for certain jobs, right? I believe. [00:04:52] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right, [00:04:53] Vanessa Joy: I mean, I travel all the time. This past year I traveled 120 days out of the year. So I travel constantly. I [00:05:00] don't, I don't like to say that I even left New Jersey in a lot of ways. Yes, I spend my time in much warmer weather, but for lack of the better word, I have like, you know, twin city businesses, you know, Austin and New York are where I might bounce back and forth. [00:05:15] Vanessa Joy: ~Um, ~I wanna say bi-coastal, but. Texas is not a coast, so I don't know what the equivalent is to that actually [00:05:22] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. ~Um, ~so by stink, yeah. So, so let me ask you this, ~uh. ~ [00:05:28] Transitioning Business Locations and Building Relationships --- [00:05:28] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: lesson that for anybody who is potentially splitting their time between two locations or moving their entire business to a new location, any lesson that you can share as far as how the heck do you say to your clients,~ uh,~ I'm moving to Texas? [00:05:43] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Or, how do, how do you starting not starting over, but sort of starting over, you know, like any lessons,~ uh,~ is things that you've run into that you've,~ uh,~ had to figure out. [00:05:53] Vanessa Joy: Absolutely the, the truth is I didn't really tell my clients I moved to Texas. I mean, you see it if you're [00:06:00] really following me on social media, but it wasn't like some huge announcement. I didn't want it to be that because I knew that I was gonna keep taking jobs in New Jersey. So for me, it's not really their concern. [00:06:13] Vanessa Joy: Right. I mean, maybe it is if they get nervous about people flying in a couple days before their event, but,~ uh,~ I've never had a problem, thank God. But it is so daunting. However, if you concentrate on relationships more than anything else, I mean, I could have, and I probably did take out like a wedding wire or the not ad in my new city. [00:06:37] Vanessa Joy: But the most I have gotten a return on my investment was the relationships I made. I came and visited before I went. I spent a year, we knew ahead of time about a year before we moved, and I spent a year coming down and meeting with venue owners and taking,~ uh,~ planners out for drinks or coffee. [00:06:58] Vanessa Joy: And that's not always the best way [00:07:00] to have it happen. Like people don't necessarily wanna give you the time of day, but some do. ~Uh, ~and those are the ones that you end up connecting with and we'll send you work for. I don't know if you're, they're a photographer in their book for that day. And besides that, it just made my new location feel a little bit more homey when I was moving across the country and didn't know a soul. [00:07:20] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right. Did,~ uh,~ I'm assuming you had some photographer connections already in the Austin area? ~Um,~ [00:07:26] Vanessa Joy: No, I, [00:07:28] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Really? None. [00:07:29] Vanessa Joy: I don't, I really. No, the one connection that I had is a girl who was in the branding space,~ um,~ and we had spoken on different stages together at conferences. So I knew her. She was the only one I really knew. She introduced me to some photographers. I mean, there were definitely photographers in Austin who,~ uh,~ followed me. [00:07:48] Vanessa Joy: And I definitely, you know, when I started looking on Instagram for different photographers, I reached out to the ones that followed me. Back,~ um,~ because I knew I'd have a better chance of [00:08:00] connecting with them if they at least knew I wasn't some lunatic trying to meet up with them or I don't know, mooch something off of them. [00:08:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right. Right. [00:08:09] Vanessa Joy: Yeah. [00:08:09] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: All right. [00:08:10] Adapting to Changes in the Photography Industry --- [00:08:10] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~so another deep question is what is one thing that you wish you could change in the photography industry? [00:08:20] Vanessa Joy: Oh, you know. It's a [00:08:23] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so much. [00:08:23] Vanessa Joy: ~Uh, ~well, there's so much. Everyone's a jerk. No. ~Um, ~there's a couple of things I wish, I wish we had a little bit more of a. Graceful way of transitioning with technology because I've been in the industry for quite some time. I was, I started with film and watched the transition to digital and we didn't hand it, handle it gracefully. [00:08:48] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: No, we did [00:08:49] Vanessa Joy: People were mad and are still mad and ~uh, ~you know, then social media became a thing that. Needed to happen in most photographers lives, and we did not handle that gracefully. ~Uh, ~now [00:09:00] the AI world is coming and we are not handling it gracefully and I understand people's concerns and you know, especially when it comes to maybe a retoucher for a living and you know, there are. [00:09:14] Vanessa Joy: Certain things that photographers aren't gonna ask you to do anymore because they can do it themselves. I get it. But you know, there's always innovation and I feel like our industry just doesn't handle it nicely. ~Um, ~we're very threatened by change and I don't know if that's a photography industry thing, but I do, I do wish we handled it a little bit better and looked at opportunity and ways to evolve with optimism versus pessimism. [00:09:42] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, I think it's a, I think it's a, like a more of a global thing, but at the same time, I think. There's not, in the photography industry, there, there's little innovations here and there. There's not a lot of big dramatic ones like film to digital,~ um,~ or the AI [00:10:00] boom. So when, when the big ones happen, it's like it stands out, you [00:10:05] Vanessa Joy: That's true. I could see that they're very large leaps when they do come, come our way. [00:10:10] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Yeah. Great answer. ~Um, ~okay. [00:10:13] Dealing with Harassment During a Photoshoot --- [00:10:13] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Let's dive into the topic at hand,~ um,~ which. ~Um, ~first, can you give a quick summary? Like you published the video, right? I reached out to you, I think that day because I was like, I had those, like that, that shock emoji. My, my brain was out of my head. I couldn't believe it actually happened. [00:10:31] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~and you got it on film. ~Um, ~can you explain what happened before we dive into some questions about this? [00:10:40] Vanessa Joy: It was really just like a normal day. Like I was doing a shoot,~ uh,~ with actually a girl that our kids went to school together. ~Uh, ~I think she's gorgeous and she wanted to get into the modeling space. I'm like, I'll photograph you. We'll have fun. We'll do some cool stuff and you know, I won't pay you to be a model, but you actually want [00:11:00] these photos. [00:11:00] Vanessa Joy: So it's like a, you know, what do they call it? Trade for photos. ~Um, ~and it was perfect. I'm like, just let me record it and. We'll make a YouTube video out of the stuff that we do together. I still have more of her stuff coming out later. And, you know, you get all these pictures, we'll build your modeling portfolio. [00:11:17] Vanessa Joy: I'll give you some tips on things that I know about, you know, submitting photos to agencies and things like that. Great. Wonderful. She's got all these outfits. We go to a place,~ um,~ that's. Not secluded, but it's not crowded either. It's kinda like a bolt launch area in Georgetown, so just north of Austin. [00:11:36] Vanessa Joy: And there are some people like around, I don't think anything of it. And I start photographing her in one spot. And then we go to another spot where a group of young boys could see and they start like cat calling, which. It shouldn't be whatever, but it is whatever, because it happens all the time. And definitely more so to my model because again, she is just like, she's a [00:12:00] bombshell. [00:12:00] Vanessa Joy: She is just so gorgeous. And you know, she's brushing it off and, and I'm brushing it off and kind of like laughing because her husband. Who is a former NFL player, like this dude is huge. He's so muscular and tall. He is like the guy that you do not wanna mess with. So I'm just kind of laughing. In addition, my husband's there who's basically holding like a monopod in like something that could be a heavy weapon. [00:12:25] Vanessa Joy: So I, we felt perfectly safe for the most part, but they just wouldn't stop. And it kept going and going and going. And then she was posing on some rocks and she kind of like faltered for a second and then they started getting nasty and then it was, oh look, she's drunk. She's just trying to, you know, get up her OnlyFans, like, look at the, and we actually, believe it or not, took out some of the things that they said, 'cause it, they were calling her names, they were like just being really raunchy and really nasty and. [00:12:55] Vanessa Joy: She handled it so well. And it's funny because it wasn't until a friend of mine, Janna Williams, who's [00:13:00] a photographer in la, she saw the video and she said, you have to look at her again. Look at how she's handling this. This is not her first time. She knows how to handle this, and I've. I didn't realize that until the second time, but I mean, she handled it so well, which means it's not a first time, which is really sad, but also really great that she's that strong. [00:13:23] Vanessa Joy: But her husband went over to talk to them and again. Former,~ uh,~ former NFL player. I, I'm like, wow, these guys are totally going to like chill once he gets over there. And he's a big teddy bear. Like he's the nicest guy you'll ever meet. I mean, I watch him hold his like, baby daughter. It's just the cutest thing. [00:13:42] Vanessa Joy: He melts like putty. So he goes over there and very nicely ask him to like stop, like, Hey, we're just trying to shoot some pictures. This is my wife. Like, could you just not do that? And they start. Barking at him. And of course he barks back. He's not gonna like let these kids start yelling at him. [00:14:00] And it just gets into this whole big thing. [00:14:02] Vanessa Joy: And they start coming at us literally holding rocks from the rocky terrain in their underwear. 'cause that's all that One of them was dressed in, threatening us, threatening to hit us, beat us, and it was like it. Oh my gosh. I've never been so scared. Honestly, I didn't have any weapons. I know everyone thinks it's Texas and we're all just packing, but we're not. [00:14:22] Vanessa Joy: And. We just start walking back to the car and Victoria's like, well, now's a great time for an outfit change. I'm like, okay. And then they follow us and they're following us at the car and they're continuing going on and on. And I mean, I looked at that kid who is holding the rock in his underwear. I thought he had a gun. [00:14:42] Vanessa Joy: 'cause it is Texas. And yeah, a lot of people do have,~ uh,~ you know, they're armed so. [00:14:47] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, [00:14:48] Vanessa Joy: I'm looking at Rob, like, you just don't even talk to him. Like just back off. Like you just, we gotta back up. Like, I don't know if he has a gun and that. My husband asked like, you got a gun? And he, he was like, what? No.[00:15:00] ~Um, ~and it wasn't even until later I looked back at the footage that I realized it was a rock he was holding. [00:15:04] Vanessa Joy: So we, it just went on and on and we called the cops and the cops finally came and, you know, basically had to break it up and yell at the kids and. You know, press charges didn't arrest anybody. ~Uh, ~most of them ran away actually naturally. One was stupid enough to sit there and fight with a cop. [00:15:24] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, [00:15:27] Vanessa Joy: Yeah. [00:15:27] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: wanna know what was going through their heads, why they thought that was,~ um,~ the right thing to do to, to anybody. ~Um. ~But,~ uh,~ what, [00:15:34] Vanessa Joy: it was funny. Of [00:15:35] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, I, it's, it's, I don't understand it. I don't understand it. ~Um, ~but so, um, you at first were just brushing it off. ~Um, ~she was just brushing it off. What, what was going through your head at first? [00:15:51] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Were you,~ um,~ initially before like, sort of escalated a bit? Were you. Were you calm inside [00:16:00] your head or were you already getting concerned? ~Um, ~from the, from the outta the gate. [00:16:05] Vanessa Joy: I wasn't concerned like safety-wise at that point. It was just like, you know, really annoying and these are rude and young dumb kids. And I'm, you know, part of your job as a photographer is to make your, your subject feel safe. Whether a model or a family or a couple or whatever it is, you wanna make them feel safe. [00:16:23] Vanessa Joy: And in that moment, I'm just trying to like. Ease the tension so that I can get some halfway decent expressions out of my model. ~Uh, ~and it was extremely difficult and I mean, my heart was definitely racing a little bit at that point, but I still felt safe. And it wasn't until they started advancing that I was like, oh my God, are they actually gonna rob us now? [00:16:45] Vanessa Joy: Because that was something that I'd been seeing a lot lately, is photographers just getting mugged for all the expensive gear that they have with them. ~Um, ~or I don't know, am I driving home to my kids later or am I not? [00:16:57] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right, right. ~Um, ~so [00:17:00] you and I know part of being a professional photographer is being able to handle,~ um,~ shoot, my camera's not working, I gotta swap it out. And, and not let your client realize something, something could've been catastrophic to their work. Right. ~Um, ~but we're not trained for this ki this kind of situation in theory, right? [00:17:17] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Like. Some, some are, most are not. ~Um, ~so how did you, as a, as before it escalated and you had to actually go away,~ um,~ and call the police, how did you, as the photographer,~ um,~ what did you do to try to stay focused and, and, and try to keep prompting your, you know, the model to pose in different directions and, and whatnot? [00:17:41] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right. So. did you, how did you focus and, and whatnot. [00:17:46] Vanessa Joy: You know, I just, I wouldn't look at them. I just kept my focus on Victoria and, you know, having her look at me and, you know, giving her prompts. Humor is a big thing for me. I'm always trying to joke [00:18:00] around with my clients. Anyway. I'm just trying to get her to laugh a little bit maybe, or concentrate more on what she's doing with her body versus them. [00:18:09] Vanessa Joy: ~Um, ~and there is a point I think in the video where you hear me say like, oh, just laugh at the fact that like their husband's here and you know, he's no match. [00:18:16] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I am, I am guessing that,~ um,~ I try not to assume too much, even though I already did use the word once today. ~Um, ~I am guessing that at some point afterward, maybe after you left. ~Um, ~maybe the next time you saw her, you guys had a conversation privately about what happened and,~ um,~ what was the type of things that you dis if you're okay sharing that. [00:18:39] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: What type of things did you discuss with her privately,~ um,~ about the situation to make sure she was comfortable, felt safe,~ uh,~ felt safe and comfortable for future sessions, for example? [00:18:50] Vanessa Joy: I mean, again, she was just someone that was somewhat used to it, so it wasn't. As big of a deal [00:19:00] on her end. She was just like, Ugh, whatever. She was rushing it off there, even while the cops were coming and we're all like hiding in the car. She was like, well, I guess I'll change outfits. Let's just keep going. [00:19:08] Vanessa Joy: ~Um, ~so I spoke to her about that. Like I couldn't believe how strong she was in that moment. ~Um, ~and she felt perfectly safe. Granted, the next time that we did something together was inside a studio and a little bit more private, and there goes my son. I'm sorry, I'm. Then it goes to stop, start really, really. Okay. I swear I know what I'm doing. ~Uh, ~and the other thing was I had to ask her like, are you okay with me making a YouTube video outta that? Because of course I want awareness around that. ~Uh, ~and irritatingly enough, actually everywhere I posted it,~ um,~ downplayed it. [00:19:53] Vanessa Joy: Because they don't wanna show things with violence, which I can appreciate not wanting to show things with violence, but when it's [00:20:00] something like that, I, it's an awareness thing. People need to see that kind of thing that happens to understand how to handle it or to have discussions about it. Sorry, I know you say random people and noise. [00:20:13] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: it's all good. [00:20:14] Vanessa Joy: I am a working photographer, working out of my home. [00:20:17] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: You, you were just saying about down,~ uh,~ companies downplaying it, right? Or like the, where you posted it, everything being downplayed. [00:20:24] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~I think. This would've been a perfect opportunity for Imagen or WPPI to be like,~ um,~ what other photographers have experienced this? Let's have a panel. Like, [00:20:35] Vanessa Joy: yeah. [00:20:36] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: that's one of the reasons why I wanted to, to do this, is like, I don't wanna downplay this. This is a big freaking deal. And,~ um,~ that's why I wanted to do an a, an episode dedicated to this topic because it needs to be talked about more. Whether it's at trade shows, whether it's,~ um,~ in,~ uh,~ media like this or, or something else. ~Um, ~so I'm glad that she was comfortable with you [00:21:00] doing the video. I'm glad that you did the video and I, my hope is that,~ um,~ we can play a small role in getting it out more to the photography world and [00:21:09] Vanessa Joy: Yeah. I would love that. Just, you know, like I said, it's similar to some of the other things that have been going on, which,~ uh,~ are photographers just getting mugged in,~ uh,~ public places. There's also photographers, you know, who have their cars broken into a lot. And granted, we can get into don't leave yourself in the car, but the truth is you have to have a level of safety precautions at this point. [00:21:34] Vanessa Joy: If you are bringing your gear out in public, if you're subjecting your. Models or you know, clients to an outdoor atmosphere that's not the privacy of their backyard. ~Uh, ~it is a topic that needs to come up and,~ uh,~ pet Aix was actually the only one that would talk about it. And I did go to a lot of other prominent blogs and other places too, and they're the only ones that would even touch it. [00:21:58] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: That's really interesting. [00:21:59] Vanessa Joy: Mm-Hmm.[00:22:00] [00:22:00] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: That is really interesting. I'm actually not surprised that Petapixel did pick it up. ~Um, ~but I am surprised that the others did not. So [00:22:07] Vanessa Joy: Yeah. I was just kind of met with like, oh, so sorry that happened to you. Bye. [00:22:14] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Ugh. [00:22:15] Vanessa Joy: Okay. It's nice. [00:22:17] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I'm glad that we're, I'm glad that we're doing this. At least I can't speak for them. But, [00:22:22] Vanessa Joy: Yep. [00:22:22] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~um, ~so has this experience,~ um,~ changed your perception on shooting in public spaces? [00:22:30] Vanessa Joy: I, it hasn't,~ um,~ at least it hasn't changed my actions, right? I'm still gonna shoot in public places. I still have clients that wanna go to specific areas. Weddings especially. I just keep my eye out a little bit more now. ~Um, ~when I know that I'm going to a park, I'm not going to bring anything that I can't carry on my back. [00:22:50] Vanessa Joy: I'm not gonna have like that suitcase,~ um,~ that somebody could potentially steal. It was actually funny. I just did a photo workshop in Italy. I have one [00:23:00] coming up in Croatia this year, and one of the guys there, Paul Cole, he had a chain on his wrist that chained his bag to him because he had seen,~ uh,~ Manny Ortiz had that happen to him. [00:23:13] Vanessa Joy: Just all he was doing a shoot and without even noticing it, he was in Italy. All his gear got stolen [00:23:20] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It was a roller. A [00:23:21] Vanessa Joy: Yeah, I think it was a roller. ~Um, ~so now for me it's always like, Nope, this just always stays on my back. And I usually have an assistant with me at all times, and part of their job is to be very aware of the gear and what's happening around me, you know, so that I can be more engaged with my client. [00:23:40] Vanessa Joy: But I definitely see these things,~ um,~ a little bit differently. I, I look at environments a little bit differently. [00:23:49] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So my next question was gonna be what kind of precautions measures you're taking. ~Um, ~obviously that is one of them being more aware of your surroundings and changing how you're carrying your gear. ~Um, ~[00:24:00] I think that's a big, you know, a big step. ~Um, ~so I wonder, are you thinking about,~ um,~ any self-defense type of things to keep on you? [00:24:12] Vanessa Joy: So, ~um, ~in all honesty, I've carried that before. I can show you what I carry if you'd like. [00:24:18] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Sure. [00:24:19] Vanessa Joy: It's not a gun, don't worry. So, a friend of mine actually gave this to me. A few years ago because it's super simple. ~Um, ~and I am not under the impression that I'd be winning any fights, but I'd like to at least have somewhere to go, something to do. ~Um, ~so this, it hooks right on a necklace and you could wear it underneath and it's just a quick, of course, do what they think in front of me, A quick pull and it's just like a knuckles. [00:24:53] Vanessa Joy: ~Um, ~so I do carry this with me. ~Uh, ~fairly often, but if I fly somewhere, I don't ever [00:25:00] check bags, so I can't carry something like this. ~Um, ~I mean, mace, I, I don't carry that. That's a liquid. I can't carry that on a plane. ~Um, ~so I do a little bit, but honestly, in my head, while I'll wear something like that, the best weapon I have is already in my hands because that camera with a 20 to 70 on it, let me tell you, that thing is a, that is a blunt object that can do some damage. [00:25:23] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I,~ uh,~ I think it was about, probably about three years ago at this point, I did a YouTube video on self-defense as a photographer [00:25:30] Vanessa Joy: Hmm. [00:25:31] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Talked about how if you have a monopod, if you have a tripod, if you have an EL bracket on your camera, that'll hurt. ~Um, ~lots of things like that. ~Um, ~and, and yeah, definitely like what you have on you, just knowing how to utilize it in a worst case scenario I think is important. [00:25:46] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~I will say though,~ um,~ I don't, I think I already have it packed 'cause I've, this focused af is coming up. ~Um. ~So I have a bunch of stuff packed, including,~ um,~ not that I expect to need it there, but,~ um,~ I have a, a tactical pen and it is a [00:26:00] me, it's like, it is a, it is a,~ uh,~ a pen that is,~ um,~ like a titanium type material. [00:26:05] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So it is a very strong metal that's super lightweight and it is a pen, a fully functional pen. But the tip one end is a,~ um,~ window breaker for a car. The other end is a. ~Um, ~a if you hit somebody, they're going to bleed, type of type of, of, of,~ uh,~ thing. You, you can touch it with your finger and it won't hurt, but if you were to hit somebody with it, it would hurt. [00:26:29] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~and so that, that is something,~ um,~ that I've, I've started carrying in my pocket just 'cause [00:26:35] Vanessa Joy: Mm-Hmm. [00:26:35] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I don't like, um, firearms, but I'm okay carrying something like that on a daily basis. ~Um, ~so, ~uh,~ [00:26:43] Vanessa Joy: also,~ um,~ I mean, I've taken self-defense courses before and there's a lot on there that you can fairly easily teach yourself and practice on like your pillow or chair or something like that. ~Uh, ~that can just help you be more aware of like, you know, if you a, [00:27:00] a physical alteration happens, which for the record. [00:27:04] Vanessa Joy: I would never engage in one. Like you will see what I do in that video. I walk away, like I walk away, get in my car. I am not engaging ever. But if it's self-defense, there are certain things that you can do to make sure that you're not hurt as much as you possibly could be. So it's a, it's a lot you can do. [00:27:24] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I mean, even people who are like trained high level, you know, uh, um, uh, BJJ or or MMA people, whatever, they still, their, their goal. If they get into a, into, into a. A potential fight on the street. Their goal is not to fight. Their goal is to get away even trained professionals. So, ~um, ~there's no reason that any photographer should get into a fight. [00:27:51] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Uh, ~it's just good to know, in a worst case scenario, if you have absolutely no option what to [00:27:57] Vanessa Joy: How to, yeah, how to protect yourself. And [00:28:00] also gear can always be replaced. I know it's expensive. I know it's your babies, but. Those are secondary. Those are just things not lives. [00:28:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: And in my, and for anybody who's listening and wants to know a very good tip, and this, this might sound like, oh, that's obvious, but some people may not be so obvious. [00:28:17] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Uh, ~so I, I, I study a, a traditional martial art. I go twice a week. And,~ um,~ every single class, our instructor drills one thing into our head. If you're in a fight, there is one thing that is extremely important to protect at all times, and that's your head. That's it. Protect your [00:28:33] Vanessa Joy: Elbows your elbows. Just get 'em in front. [00:28:36] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~our other instructor says, elbows in to win. [00:28:38] Vanessa Joy: There you go. [00:28:39] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: tip for you. ~Um, ~so, okay. ~Um, ~my last question to you about this topic is, can you share,~ um,~ any, a lot has been shared already in even to answer this question, but any final tip that you could share,~ um,~ some advice or tip for photographers who may. Face a similar challenge. ~Um, ~even if a model winds up listening to this,[00:29:00] ~ uh,~ similar challenge, how would you recommend to handle the situation? [00:29:04] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Any, any other tips that you can share besides getaway? Because, 'cause that one we got that one we got [00:29:10] Vanessa Joy: I mean, we did try it in the beginning where you're just like, smile about it. Like kill them with kindness. I know even like when I'm walking around by myself in New York, I'll have people start talking to me or kind of cat call me. I don't actually ignore them. I smile and I say thank you,~ um,~ because I feel like that, you know, you ignore them and now you're a challenge, right? [00:29:33] Vanessa Joy: But you just smile and say thank you and. That's it. ~Um, ~and you just keep walking. So I find that if you're in that situation and you're not dealing with people who are inebriated or somehow otherwise mentally altered, then um. You know, just, just smile, say thank you and move on. And like, that's it. And even though they're may or may not be being disrespectful to you, you can show a little respect to them and that might get you out [00:30:00] of the situation as opposed to,~ um,~ you know, ignoring them or just walking away. [00:30:05] Vanessa Joy: It's kind of like, ~uh, ~with dogs, right? You, you have one running at you, you should actually stand still, not run [00:30:12] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. that's true. That's [00:30:14] Vanessa Joy: ~Um, ~so it's similar. [00:30:15] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Would you,~ um,~ if you were to re, if you had to relive that situation today, would you have called the police earlier? [00:30:23] Vanessa Joy: We called the police right away, actually. ~Um, ~well, we called not when they were far off and cat calling because to me that's not physically threatening. ~Um, ~and again, you shouldn't have to, but like we deal with it all the time. I'm not calling the cops on everyone that cat calls,~ uh,~ you know, me and my model. [00:30:39] Vanessa Joy: But the second they started advancing it was, it was immediate. Absolutely immediate. ~Um, ~it just took them 15 minutes to get there. Mm-Hmm. [00:30:49] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Austin, Texas. [00:30:51] Vanessa Joy: Yeah. Well it was often like a random boat ramp. So in their defense. [00:30:56] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~well, that, that's, that's what I, I wanted to just, you know, spend time with you, [00:31:00] talk about this,~ um,~ bring some light to it. ~Um, ~I think you shared a lot of good things for, for, for,~ um,~ anybody who's potentially in the, in that situation to keep in the back of their minds. ~Um, ~any, any, any final words you wanna share before we, before we sign off? [00:31:13] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~on, on this topic or [00:31:15] Vanessa Joy: I don't, I think you covered it all. We're pretty good there. And if you wanna go watch the video, just check out my YouTube. ~Um, ~it is not the most viewed video, so, but you could sort it by that and it's somewhere near the top. [00:31:26] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I'll, I'll, I'll include it in the show notes for sure. It'll be in the show notes. [00:31:28] Vanessa Joy: Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, if you wanna leave a comment,~ uh,~ I know Victoria myself, like we both look at it and the supportive comments that we have received are really, really helpful. [00:31:39] Vanessa Joy: I've definitely received a couple that were not so supportive, believe it or not, but,~ um,~ the supportive ones are just really nice that they're so reassuring. [00:31:47] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Awesome. ~Um, ~so thank you for joining me,~ uh,~ where I will link to your YouTube of course, and especially to this video. Where else can everybody who's listening, find your [00:32:00] website, your socials, all that fun stuff? [00:32:02] Vanessa Joy: The easiest place to go to is Vanessajoy.com, V-A-N-E-S-S-A-J-O Y.com. And there, you know, if you're a photographer, there's a four, I think it says photographer, EDU or something like that, and you can go. To a photography site that has a bunch of freebies on it. It also links my YouTube channel, which has, you know, hundreds of videos on there and,~ uh,~ most where I hang out social wise, usually on Instagram. [00:32:27] Vanessa Joy: Is that where you are too? Do I feel like most photographers hang out on Instagram? [00:32:31] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, I think most are on Instagram. [00:32:32] Vanessa Joy: Yeah. [00:32:33] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Even though we, we, we try not to, I guess, but we still wind up being there anyway. [00:32:38] Vanessa Joy: Yep. [00:32:38] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: no choice. Awesome. Thank you. [00:32:43] ​[00:33:00]