Elevating Photography Experiences: Expert Insights with Jerry Ghionis

[00:00:11] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: [00:01:00] Jerry is a proud Nikon ambassador and PDN magazine named him one of the top photography workshop instructors in the world. He is WPPI his most awarded photographer and first grand master. With over three decades in the photography industry he's known for posing lighting, storytelling, versatility, and mastering multiple genres. I'm so excited for you to listen to this conversation that I had with Jerry. There's so many fantastic takeaways, so many juicy insights. [00:01:36] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: You're really going to get to know how Jerry works in his business and with his clients. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Jerry [00:01:46] Introduction and Initial Conversation --- [00:01:46] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: what's up Jerry? How's it going? [00:01:48] Jerry Ghionis: Good man. Great to connect with you. [00:01:50] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, yeah. [00:01:51] First Question: Valuable Lessons from Past Jobs --- [00:01:51] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So, ~um, ~I'm gonna just get right in with a question. I, I never asked anybody this question before, but I feel like you're gonna have [00:02:00] the perfect answer to this question right outta the gate. [00:02:03] Jerry Ghionis: All right. No [00:02:04] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: you, sh no pressure. Can you share one story from a job that you've done in the past where you learned a very valuable lesson directly from whatever happened that impacted your photography or your photography business? [00:02:22] Jerry Ghionis: Hmm. Oh man. There's, um. [00:02:26] Sharing a Personal Story: Learning from Mistakes --- [00:02:26] Jerry Ghionis: There's a long, there's a long story,~ um,~ and it's pretty painful. ~Um, ~probably the worst thing that happened to me on a wedding, but I can probably tell you something that's probably a, a good lesson from a business perspective that I'd learnt,~ uh,~ which will directly impact the,~ uh,~ probably our workflow conversation. [00:02:42] Jerry Ghionis: So, ~um, ~you know, I've ran a, a very busy studio here in Melbourne, and you know, at our peak we were doing 300 plus weddings a year, and I had 15 employees. And you know, the good thing is if I wanted to test something new into our workflow, whether it was a business,~ uh,~ [00:03:00] idea, a different pricing change or whatever, ~um.~ [00:03:02] Jerry Ghionis: I would simply just do it for a few weeks, and that would equate to dozens of clients. So I could really test my theory and hone my craft from that perspective. My, as in my business acumen and craft and everything. And I remember back in the day when no one was pre-design albums, you know, it, it just wasn't happening. [00:03:20] Jerry Ghionis: Like you would show an album, you would do what you do. But I would pre-design the album. And I'm like, I've got a great idea. I'm gonna pre-design this album, and I'm not gonna tell the client I'm gonna surprise them after their wedding. And then I'll see if they want it. And then what happened was, so there I was a great, beautiful relationship with a couple, a fantastic wedding day. [00:03:43] Jerry Ghionis: I sit down with a couple, they booked on 30 sides. I showed them a hundred odd sides. And then at the end of it I said,~ um,~ it's going to be, you know, $4,000 more, whatever it was at the time. I have no idea. And I have never [00:04:00] seen a person scorned so bad. Like it was literally like I went from the angel to the devil in minutes. [00:04:08] Importance of Clear Communication with Clients --- [00:04:08] Jerry Ghionis: ~Um, ~and I learned a very valuable lesson. People don't really care what they about, what they spend and what they buy or whatever. They just need to know the rules of engagement. So the, the lesson that I learned back then was, you know what my problem was that I didn't tell my client that I was going to pre-design a larger album that they invested in. [00:04:31] Jerry Ghionis: And that is what caused the problem. And it was very hard to win them back. I think I ended up winning them back by producing the album at no cost. But I, I, I saw it as a teachable moment for me that the fact that I did them wrong, I did not tell them that I was gonna pre-design. And I learned my lesson very quickly and then thereafter I said, oh, okay. [00:04:52] Jerry Ghionis: They just need to know. Maybe that's it. And then I condition my clients from the beginning, before they book, when they book, after they book on the wedding [00:05:00] day, you know, ~uh, ~the, the communication afterwards. And then it, it wasn't no problem at all. So it was very valuable for me. And I've been telling that, that story to my students. [00:05:11] Jerry Ghionis: And,~ uh,~ yeah. I mean, there's a lot juicier stories, but that's probably a more equatable,~ uh,~ business one that, [00:05:16] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, yeah. That's a. That's a great one. You learn, you learn the hard way,~ um,~ to, to set the expectations and to always keep it in your client's minds from outta the gate and, and,~ uh,~ and then you started doing it. So [00:05:31] Jerry Ghionis: Yeah, [00:05:32] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: sometimes we have to learn lessons the hard way. [00:05:34] Jerry Ghionis: Exactly right. Absolutely. It's okay. [00:05:36] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, it is, it is. All right. [00:05:39] What is one thing that you do for the photographic process that has saved you time? --- [00:05:39] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So, ~um, ~let's shift into, now that we just had a very difficult topic,~ um,~ let's shift into one that I, I also know that you're gonna rock. This is,~ um,~ the photographic process behind the camera. What is one thing that you do during the photographic process that has saved you time. [00:05:58] Jerry Ghionis: As in when I'm [00:06:00] photographing. [00:06:01] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Mm-Hmm. Yep. Setting up your lights, setting up the set. ~Um, ~you know, posing your, your, your, you know, your clients, whatever it might be. [00:06:08] Jerry Ghionis: Ah, look, there's a lot, there's lots of things. ~Um, ~I think, well, let me give you a two-prong answer. One is basically that I, I have a mannequin. ~Um, ~the problem is that I actually, when I moved studios recently,~ um, uh, ~Sally, we call the mannequin,~ um,~ she lost an arm and a leg literally got scratched up. So I'm like, I, I had to get rid of her, unfortunately, and we, we didn't give her a proper burial. [00:06:30] Jerry Ghionis: But anyway,~ um,~ it, once, you know, if a client is getting hair and makeup done and I'm doing an intricate lighting situation, even something that I've done before, I mean, I. I put the mannequin in there, I get the lighting right and perfect, and then all of a sudden, within minutes of my client walking on set, we're photographing them. [00:06:48] Jerry Ghionis: So that, that has saved me an incredible amount of time. [00:06:52] Efficiency in Photography: Going Slower to Save Time --- [00:06:52] Jerry Ghionis: ~Um, ~and I'm gonna give you an answer now that you probably don't expect I save time by going slower. [00:07:00] My, my approach to photography and working with clients is that, and I, and I've witnessed this for literally for 23 years of pho, of, of teaching photographers the biggest problem, apart from lack of confidence, lack of experience, lack of repetition and practice, all that kind of stuff, really is actually, everyone believes they have to go quick because in your mind. [00:07:21] Jerry Ghionis: You think that your clients think that you are inexperienced if you go slower and methodical, and I just believe that people will mirror your energy. And so I walk on set, I build trust. I, I, I know who I'm speaking to. I've established that trust long before the shoot ever happened. And, and I take my time. [00:07:43] The Art of Posing and Capturing the Perfect Shot --- [00:07:43] Jerry Ghionis: And rather than, because if you've ever photographed a wedding or a portrait, you know, traditionally, you know, you will. Me as a heterosexual man, I will usually fall in love with the bride or whoever's in front of me, right?[00:08:00] ~Uh, ~even a guy, metaphorically. I fall in love with the person that I'm photographing. [00:08:03] Jerry Ghionis: And what I, what you tend to do, and that happens is you start taking a hundred, a hundred photographs of that person in that one scene. And how many photographs are you gonna use in that album or in that piece of wall, three or four. How many do I take when I photograph someone, three or four or five of that particular scene? [00:08:24] Jerry Ghionis: So for me, it's very important to encourage photographers to slow down, to get to the destination quicker, take less shots, craft them better. That energy will rub off and people will actually be left with a beautiful enduring memory of that shoot. And the more enduring the memory, the, the more valuable it is, the more valuable it is that people are gonna pay you more, you know? [00:08:44] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Yeah. That is, it's, that's a very interesting approach of a way, of, a way of thinking of like, slowing down means that you're spending more time positioning, prompting, posing, whatever it might be for your [00:09:00] subject, getting your lighting right, you know, not spraying and praying. And in, in turn you have less to cull through and less to edit,~ um,~ in the post-production part of the process. [00:09:12] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~plus you've built a very unique relationship with your client at that point by, by taking that time and really,~ um,~ getting personal with it. That is well, well done. [00:09:24] Jerry Ghionis: I mean, I mean, it's important too because when you're photographing, I, I always say, look, don't think about what you are selling until you take the first photograph in a new scene. So right now, I'm next to a window. Let's say I'm the, I'm a, I'm a groom. I'm a guy, a portrait client. You photograph me, I'm looking off. [00:09:41] Jerry Ghionis: Great. ~Um, ~now what's gonna go with it? Take that first photograph, then say, what is gonna go with that photograph? So I literally designed the pages of an album as I shoot, if I've nailed that spread, it has to be consistent with mood, feeling, color, palette,~ um,~ [00:10:00] energy. Like you're not gonna put boudoir with family. [00:10:03] Jerry Ghionis: You're not gonna put a, a a a bride. ~Um, ~laughing with her soft and, and sensual with a veil over her face. You're not gonna put TSS and lit shots with the sky. So my job is to take as many shots that that can harmonize together. And once I've nailed that spread, if I do that in two or three shots, now how do I make it look different? [00:10:24] Jerry Ghionis: What, what is one thing that I can change to make her look different or a portrait client? And I'm telling you that the, it, it, the world opens up. You sell more if you slow down,~ um,~ because you just get to the destination quicker. So those people who actually watch me in person and in line for that matter, but when they see me in person, it's like, I don't really, I didn't realize how slow you are, but I, I'll nail it quicker. [00:10:48] Jerry Ghionis: So even though people are out of the gate quicker than me, I normally nail the shot quicker. And also I give myself permission that the shot is done, it's [00:11:00] done. I never reach for perfection. I'm reaching for a perfect moment. I'm not. After,~ um,~ in people's minds, oh, it's not good enough. Oh, I can't do it. [00:11:08] Jerry Ghionis: Whatever. I'm like, you know what? If I'm taking a photograph and I say to myself, the best version of this shot is not that great, I retire it. I just move on. I go to a next shot. If I say my brain, the best version of this shot is a wow shot, and it's, I'm gonna fight to the death in half an hour to take it, I'll do it Most of the time, though, it is a thoughtful approach. [00:11:33] Jerry Ghionis: I've got an idea in my head, and I've always said that, you know, creatives aren't short of ideas. The challenge is committing to one, and I just commit to an idea. I execute and I'm done. I retire it good or bad or ugly. I, I retire the feeling and I move on. So I, I shoot with the, the, you know, the, the, the pain of a poet, so to speak,~ uh,~ as John Bo Bon Jovi said,~ uh, uh.~ [00:11:55] Jerry Ghionis: In one of his songs, but I, I also wanna sell it. So, [00:12:00] you know, it doesn't make me less of an artist, it just makes me a thriving artist, you know? [00:12:04] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Um, at WPPI coming up, 'cause you're, this episode's airing on February 1st. WPPI is is around the corner. ~Um, ~will you be on the, on the Nikon stage? [00:12:14] Jerry Ghionis: ~Uh, ~I'm sure it will. I I always am. I, I, yeah, I, yeah, I always am, so I'm, I'm sure that that will,~ uh,~ happen again. Yeah. [00:12:20] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So for those listening,~ uh,~ or watching,~ um,~ if you wanna see Jerry in action and you're at WVP, I definitely, definitely try to catch him when he's,~ um,~ at, at the, at the big Nikon booth. [00:12:33] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~and,~ uh,~ watch him [00:12:35] Jerry Ghionis: And I, I've got a, I've got a Platt, I've got a platform program as well, and obviously involved in other stuff. So I'm, I'm easy to find the WPPI. [00:12:42] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, definitely. [00:12:45] What is one thing that you do for the business that saves you time or money? --- [00:12:45] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Um, so, ~uh, ~let's, let's move on to the business side of things. You did talk a little bit about business in my first question to you, but let's, let's shift to business and,~ um,~ what is one thing that you do for the business side of [00:13:00] things that saves you time or money? [00:13:06] Jerry Ghionis: This might seem like a really funny answer, but I, I know the business side very well. ~Um, ~administratively, my wife Melissa, is just a beast at what she does, and she's given me time, more time to, to focus on things that only I can do. [00:13:24] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Mm-Hmm. [00:13:24] Jerry Ghionis: And so in other words, delegate stuff that you just don't need to do, like figure out in your business the only things that you can do. [00:13:34] Jerry Ghionis: And what is that? For me, I'm the driver of the business. I'm the entrepreneur. I am the. ~Um, ~I'm the creator. Like I, I, I, I'm, me being, you know, behind the camera is the most valuable part of what we do. Therefore, I should be doing more of that. So, delegating,~ um,~ parts of the business that you don't like to do. [00:13:53] Jerry Ghionis: And when I say don't like to do, we all start somewhere. Usually we do everything ourselves, but just work out. Like, if you procrastinate on something, it [00:14:00] means you don't like it and you never will. So don't think something magically will change,~ um,~ that will happen. So that has been,~ uh,~ incredible for me. [00:14:07] Jerry Ghionis: Melissa's been, I mean, I, you know, I fell in love with her and life was amazing. And then I just found out that, by the way, she's just this awesome administrator and manager of things and she just leaves me time to do what I need to do. [00:14:19] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Amazing. Amazing. I, I think I know that,~ um,~ you, you both probably don't remember meeting me many years ago. We, we shared that story,~ uh,~ when we first started emailing months ago, but,~ uh,~ I don't think I could even remember you in the US industry without Melissa. So, ~um, ~it's,~ uh,~ I mean, the day that I, the day that I first met you in person was the day that I first met Melissa in person. [00:14:47] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: And,~ uh, ~ ~um, ~I have the memory. So that's all, that's, that's all I care about, but [00:14:52] Jerry Ghionis: Yeah, no, I mean, every, we we're not, I'm, I'm no longer Jerry Ess, we're Jerry and Melissa that, you know, people, [00:15:00] people just know us as a team. We're, you know, combined. We're the one person, you know, we're, we're together, we're a genius, [00:15:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, [00:15:08] Jerry Ghionis: you know. [00:15:08] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so you, you, you're coming down the hallway and, you know, and,~ uh,~ some people are like, oh, there's Jerry. And some people are like, there's Melissa, you know, it's,~ uh,~ it's, or some people are, there's Jerry and Melissa, you know. [00:15:20] Jerry Ghionis: Or, or people just abbreviated. I remember our, our Celebrate said, I now pronounce you Julissa. So [00:15:27] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: nice, [00:15:28] Jerry Ghionis: it was so funny. [00:15:30] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Oh, ba oh man, I, I like the name. But then during,~ um,~ when the, when the pandemic started,~ um,~ we had a shift in our, we had a stay at home or, no, not stay at home. My, my now 5-year-old, at the time he was two, we had like a in-home childcare and we had a change in who was taking care of him at home, and her name was Julissa. [00:15:51] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: And when the pandemic hit, she ghosted us. Just left us with no, [00:15:56] Jerry Ghionis: That's so funny. [00:15:58] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Anyway, so that's my,~ uh,~ [00:16:00] Issa experience. ~Um, ~okay. Let's shift into,~ um,~ that's a, a teachable moment. [00:16:05] What is one thing that you do for editing that has saved you time? --- [00:16:05] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Don't ghost your clients. ~Um, ~so what is now one thing you do on the Editing side of things that has saved you time? [00:16:16] Jerry Ghionis: Well, it's interesting. I, I, you know, be, because I've been doing a lot of video production lately. ~Um, ~there, there's a famous saying in that, in that industry, in that sort of genre, that the best post-production is pre-production. And I guess I've already alluded to it, that there's nothing that I do in post-production that magically saves me time short of me saying I do not do my own,~ uh,~ post-production Editing. [00:16:40] Jerry Ghionis: I do, I [00:16:41] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: that's fine. [00:16:42] Jerry Ghionis: you know, so, so for me, what saves me time, I just don't do it. You know, I, I pay for the luxury. ~Um, ~so let me tackle that first. So people often will say to me, well, Jerry, you know, you always encourage me to, to not do my own post-production, then,~ um,~ but I can't afford to pay myself, let alone somebody else. [00:16:57] Jerry Ghionis: And I'm like, well, how many hours are you spending on [00:17:00] post-production a week? And they say, 30, 40, 50, 60 hours. I said, okay. Let's say that cost you, you know, $500 to, to do the post-production per week. And I, you can't afford to pay yourself. I said, well, imagine now you've got 40, 50, 60 hours free to go there and find the perfect client, create the perfect client, shoot,~ uh, uh, ~an image, whether it's pet photography, boudoir, glamour, portraits, whatever it is that you like to do, and then maximize that sale and then work on your business rather than in it. [00:17:28] Jerry Ghionis: I mean, it's, you can't deny that. It's a lot of power to that. And as a sidestep to reiterate, what I've already said is what makes me save time in the post-production side of things is not overshooting. I, how many times do people photograph Imageners that they know they're going to delete or never show the client? [00:17:48] Jerry Ghionis: I'm telling you now. We are all terrible. We, we start shooting and digital has made us lazy. Like, we're like, I'll delete this one, but I'll take it, I'll delete it. I'll, I'm not talking [00:18:00] about taking four or five shots of a family where, you know, at least one of them hasn't blinked in one of those shots. [00:18:06] Jerry Ghionis: I'm not talking about, you know, ~uh, ~if it was a wedding, for example, you know, the bride coming up the aisle or event driven stuff, which requires some moments where they require multiple shots in a row. I'm talking about when you can control the environment. The, the best way of saving time is don't shoot things that you're not gonna delete or you're not gonna use like, you know, OO otherwise it's a waste. [00:18:27] Jerry Ghionis: No one's gonna say where, like, you get a nice meal, you're not gonna say, where's more of that meal? You're just gonna really be satisfied with that meal. You can go to smorgasbord and, and get crappy food and it'd be cheap, but what are you looking for? Like, you know, what are your clients looking for? So set the standard and, and condition your clients that. [00:18:44] Jerry Ghionis: You know, of how you work and what to expect and set expectations. When clients are unhappy, it's usually because their expectations aren't met. So set expectations that you know for a hundred percent certainty, rain, hail, or shown you can deliver. [00:18:58] Final Thoughts and Wrap Up --- [00:18:58] Jerry Ghionis: And then always find a way to [00:19:00] actually overdeliver, and I'm not saying give the house away, I'm just saying thoughtful approach to your business and the experience that will actually help them really remember you. [00:19:09] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Well said. ~Um, ~outta curiosity, because you did just touch on this briefly,~ um,~ for a split second, when's the last time you,~ uh,~ picked up film? A film camera and shot film? I'm curious. [00:19:21] Jerry Ghionis: The last time I picked up film,~ uh,~ was on our wedding day. ~Um, ~I used an old twin reflex camera and I shot Melissa and I in a mirror of our apartment actually in. We're in Melbourne, near Docklands, in, in Australia, and it's literally just across the river there. ~Uh, ~basically, yeah. And that was it. And people, people use film now. [00:19:43] Jerry Ghionis: Like, it's like, I'm, I'm a, I'm a fine art film photographer, and I'm like, is Novak Jako Vic,~ uh,~ a professional, you know, aluminum tennis player or Allo alloy? Like, I don't know, man, I, I, I just, and God love [00:20:00] everyone who's shooting with film. It's totally fine. ~Um, ~I'm like, why, why would you spend that amount of money when clients may not know the difference? [00:20:07] Jerry Ghionis: And I, I realize that people use it as a term of endearment. I, I get it. You play a record player and it's, there's a romance behind it. I totally get that aspect. No problem. But if you're running a business and you can save yourself a thousand dollars a wedding, and you're doing 30 weddings and there's 30 grand for the sake of. [00:20:24] Jerry Ghionis: FI, I mean, find another selling point. You know, I, I don't, I don't get it. I don't get it. I love the fact that I, I was brought up with film. I love the fact that I, you know, I've, I've gone through that process of shooting with medium format film and then 35 millimeter film, and then scanning those negatives and, and being digital and all that stuff. [00:20:44] Jerry Ghionis: And I remember, like, I look at all of it and I'm like, man, if I could, if I could, could've started my, my career with digital, that would be my preference. So, yeah, it's, it's fun, but it's also fun to save money and, and not have to change roles of film every [00:21:00] 36 shots and miss a shot and be freaked out by it and all that stuff. [00:21:04] Jerry Ghionis: And then people blink. It's your fault. Like, yeah, man, I don't know. It's really [00:21:08] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. I, I kind of feel the same way. Like I wouldn't use it for clients. I do. ~Um. ~Bring,~ um,~ I have a, I dunno you if you might remember this camera. It was a Nikon,~ uh,~ TI 28. So it, like, it looked like the meter on top of, it's a little point and shoot, it did have some manual controls, but on top,~ um,~ it's right behind me, I could grab it, but on top there's like, the meter on it looks like a, like a clock. [00:21:31] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It's beautiful. It's like, it looks like a timepiece. ~Um, ~there was two versions. There was a 28 and a 35 and I had the 28. ~Um, ~so I, I still load that up with 35 millimeter film every so often and,~ um,~ just for the fun, but I could never see myself using it for client work,~ um,~ [00:21:48] Jerry Ghionis: And, and that's okay. I, I think people have done a, have done a,~ uh,~ some people who've positioned themselves as a fine art film photographer. Yeah, okay. You find a marketing angle and you go for it. And I think that there's always the, you know, people [00:22:00] think of it as vintage now. I even, people have referenced t-shirts in the early two thousands as vintage, and I'm like, oh my God, I'm a wear relics right now. [00:22:09] Jerry Ghionis: You know, it's so, yeah, it's quite weird, but I like to think of myself as still very young, but, you know, having a bit more salt and pepper these days and, [00:22:17] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Mm. Right there with you. [00:22:19] Jerry Ghionis: know, ~um, ~but it's all good, man. It's all good, [00:22:21] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I, I'd like you, I also,~ um,~ I'm so happy and appreciative for, for getting into the industry in a color dark room and in a black and white dark room and going through the painstaking processes. ~Um, ~and ~uh, ~there, I have to say though, there is nothing better than looking at a one 20 film. [00:22:43] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Like 35 is cool, but when you look at a one 20, it's just, there's nothing like it, [00:22:49] Jerry Ghionis: Well, yeah, I mean, it's cool. [00:22:50] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: it's so cool. [00:22:51] Jerry Ghionis: I mean, what, what is one 20 scan the equivalent of in megapixels of the current crop of cameras in most camera brands? I don't know. [00:23:00] I, I, no, no one has ever, no one has ever questioned when I shot medium format or 35 mil or two megapixel digital camera or a 45 megapixel camera. [00:23:09] Jerry Ghionis: I think we just start talking about this stuff and, and no one really cares. People just care about the moments. ~Uh, ~is it flattering? Is it a good moment? Does it tell my story how you got there? I don't think people care as much as we do, [00:23:22] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, yeah. I don't, I don't think so either. I don't think so either. ~Um, ~okay. One more question till I go to another fun one. Um, [00:23:28] What is one thing that you do after a session that has increased business? --- [00:23:28] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: what is one thing you do after a session? So you just did the wedding. You, you know, you ~um, ~you cold it, you, you edited it, that's all done. What is one thing now you do after the wedding is done? [00:23:42] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: After a session is done that has increased business? [00:23:47] Jerry Ghionis: Okay, so, ~uh, ~well, let's go to Wedding and Portrait will be a little bit different. So you're saying WW you know, you're saying I've shot the wedding. I've called it, it's on a [00:23:55] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: edited it, it's, it's done. You,~ um,~ this, now the increased business part could [00:24:00] be, you know, ~um, ~I more IPS it could be, it could be something with the gallery, it could be something even beyond. It could be referrals, whatever it might be. Whatever you want it to be after the session, after the wedding, rather. [00:24:10] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: What [00:24:11] Jerry Ghionis: ~Uh, ~this, I mean, there's, there's countless things. Um, I mean, may, let me answer it in a, maybe a different way that you expected. Probably one of the best marketing. Ideas that I've ever done,~ uh,~ for a wedding specifically, is a same day slideshow at a wedding. So, ~uh, ~I would photograph the wedding during the reception, pick my favorite photographs, and in between me photographing speeches and dancers, whatever, I'm furiously picking the, my favorites, putting it to music. [00:24:38] Jerry Ghionis: ~Um, ~and then, you know, 10, 10 30, playing a slideshow of the wedding on the same night. And I've probably got more referral direct, quicker referrals from that idea,~ um,~ than in anything. I think one of my first ones was in 2000, 2001. Like I forget when it was. And it was incredible. And I, I, I remember even [00:25:00] one day I got these from photo flash drives. [00:25:04] Jerry Ghionis: I had these USB drives that I give to the, to the parents and the couple on the same day, these beautiful jewelry boxes. And that's a gift that I give the, the, the families. One. ~Uh, ~this is, I've only done it once. ~Um, ~much to Melissa's horror. We got a few USB hubs plugged them all in. And once I did the slideshow, I literally, you know, copied 200 slideshows on USB drives. [00:25:28] Jerry Ghionis: And as they were walking out, that was, I think that you guys call 'em in the US a wedding favor. ~Uh, ~in, in Australia we call it a bob. Like, it's basically like a, it's a gift that you give that sits on the table, but that was their gift. So you can imagine, you know, a 300 wedding,~ uh,~ attended wedding is probably represents maybe 150 families and couples. [00:25:49] Jerry Ghionis: So 150 families and couples walked out with this. Now, the next time they shoot their portrait,~ uh,~ they need a portrait or a wedding, who are they gonna think of? And on that drive [00:26:00] was not only the slideshow, there was a, a gift voucher for a family portrait session. So we not only got weddings directly from that. [00:26:08] Jerry Ghionis: And they pay for the slideshow, by the way, so they pay for the slideshow. It's a best sum of marketing for us, and then all of a sudden it opens up us up to this whole new world. So, I mean, that's, that's sort of like be, I know you asked me the question afterwards, but I thought I'd sort of relay back the, the what we, what I believe is, has been the best marketing for me for weddings, you know, [00:26:30] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, no, that's, that's fantastic. ~Um, ~you know, ~uh, ~we are finding a lot of Imageners because of what Imagen's capabilities are now doing. Same day slideshows with their photos edited in their style on whatever screen they're displaying it on, like doing it, you know, hundreds of photos in, in no time. ~Um, ~and being able to do it the way that they wanna present it. [00:26:59] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: [00:27:00] And without like, that extra hassle of, okay, now I, I need to do a little bit of Editing on these. I can't just show 'em as is. You could, but it'd be better if I do it, you know, this way. So, ~um, ~we're seeing, I, I think that's an area where it doesn't,~ um,~ immediately come into people's minds when they think, you know, how can Imagen help me. [00:27:17] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Well, there you go. Imagen can help you Doane based slide shows. ~Um, ~so [00:27:21] Jerry Ghionis: think it's, I think it's very clever. I think it's very clever. I, I, I, I think that many, like, I'll do slideshows sometimes. Most of my slideshows that I've ever done, I don't even Lightroom them. They're straight from the camera. Like they're, they're, I don't adjust anything. They're there. It's three, four seconds per image, whatever it is gonna be done. [00:27:39] Jerry Ghionis: But for, for someone who maybe lacks a little bit of confidence or experience and, and uses that as a bit of a crutch, like fantastic, I think it's a perfect way to use your software. Absolutely. [00:27:49] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Awesome. Yeah. ~Um, ~okay, we're gonna go to a fun one. I've been doing this to every guest since season two. So, ~um, ~okay. [00:28:00] Pick a color [00:28:03] Jerry Ghionis: All right. Orange. [00:28:05] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: orange. Nice. Okay. I'm gonna make a stupid Las Vegas joke. So, you're from Las, you're from Las Vegas. [00:28:14] Jerry Ghionis: am. Yeah. [00:28:17] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I'm gonna thumb through these deck, this deck, and you're gonna tell me when to stop. [00:28:21] Jerry Ghionis: Okay. [00:28:24] Jerry Ghionis: Stop. [00:28:25] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: All right. My next question to you is, you picked this, not me. [00:28:35] Jerry Ghionis: What cut Is it? [00:28:37] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: What is something you don't mind paying more money for? [00:28:41] Jerry Ghionis: ~Um, ~an experience, [00:28:44] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Can you gimme an example, gimme an example of, of one that,~ um,~ that you might have splurged on that,~ um,~ was well worth it. So much fun, whatever it might be. [00:28:52] Jerry Ghionis: M most cons. I mean, obviously we're, we're in the sort of concert capital of the world there in Las Vegas and performances. ~Um, ~you know, [00:29:00] I've, I love Lady Gaga and I love jazz and she's doing her jazz and piano concerts,~ uh,~ stuff. So, you know, when it came, when it came to buying tickets for that, like my general rule, unless it's crazy expensive, like Adele expensive,~ um,~ my general rule is I wanna see the human, I wanna see the performer with my own two eyes. [00:29:22] Jerry Ghionis: I don't want to have to look at a screen 'cause I might as well just watch it on YouTube. Even So, you know, I went twice,~ uh,~ to Lady Gaga's,~ uh,~ jazzing piano concert and we were in the first row. And the second row respectively and best money spent. Because for me, it's, you know, as you get older, as you may feel, or not, or not, now, I turned 50 recently, so for me, you know, you, I don't have a, I'm not having a midlife crisis. [00:29:45] Jerry Ghionis: I'm, I, I have a, a renewed sense of, of joy because of my mortality. Does that make sense? Like, I, I, I appreciate experiences a lot more than things, [00:30:00] and I, I just, I don't have a problem in spending money on experiences because I, I know that that's gonna, that those memories and that the stories that you tell about them is really what life's all about. [00:30:10] Jerry Ghionis: You know, we recently bought season tickets for, for the Vegas Golden Knights Hockey. ~Uh, ~you know, so for us, you know, to, to, to, to see it gives us a lot of joy. And I'll, I'll, I'll spend money on that, you know, but,~ uh,~ yeah. [00:30:23] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I would never pay to see a Lady Gaga like normal pop concert, but I would 100% go see a jazz show from with her. 'cause she is an amazing singer. [00:30:33] Jerry Ghionis: she is incredible. I, I, I can't even tell you, she was, she literally just glided out. She just respected the genre, her musicians, the crowds. ~Uh, ~there was just such a reverence for the art form. ~Um, ~and, you know, yeah, she's really a musician's musician and she can do it all. She can do it all. And you know, like I said, for me that fellow artists in different genres totally inspire me. [00:30:57] Jerry Ghionis: Sports people,~ um,~ [00:31:00] musicians. When I see commitment to one's craft, it really inspires me to keep on doing the same with my craft. [00:31:05] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yes. Yeah, a hundred percent. Totally agree. ~Um, ~side question, [00:31:11] Jerry Ghionis: Yeah. [00:31:11] Visiting the Sphere: A Personal Experience --- [00:31:11] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~uh, ~have you or do you plan on going to the sphere, the [00:31:15] Jerry Ghionis: haven't gone, yeah, I haven't gone to the sphere yet. I've been close to it and, 'cause I've had friends come over and family come over and we've gone very close. And it's fun when you're, you know, you're flying the plane and you can see it on the bottom and stuff. So I actually see it almost every day. [00:31:29] Jerry Ghionis: ~Uh, ~it's really cool. I'm waiting for the right experience to go see it. There is a movie that plays, that's nature and all that kind of stuff. U2, I've been to U2, they're awesome. I, I, I saw footage of the U2 concert and being up in the bleaches and seeing, you know, four old white guys and this monumental experience. [00:31:48] The Ideal Concert Experience: Beyonce at the Sphere --- [00:31:48] Jerry Ghionis: I, I'd sort of, I think I want to see something more pop. Like if I heard Beyonce might be performing there, I think that would be more of a thing that I'd like to see a bit more bling, you know, like give me an experience that [00:32:00] suits that, that, that, that, that space, you know, in my brain, I, that being said, I could, I, I could go in in three weeks, but I, I feel like I wanna reserve. [00:32:09] Jerry Ghionis: That first impression with a, with a really cool experience. So, [00:32:13] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: something that has more impact to you than just going to it. [00:32:17] Jerry Ghionis: Give me like, gimme a visual feast that suits the performance. Does that make sense? Like, not, not some arbitrary things that I don't know. Like I said in my mind, and even though the people have said, gone to the two concert, said, oh, it's amazing, you gotta go. [00:32:29] Jerry Ghionis: And I'm like, well, I don't know. Like, I just feel like I want to, I want a, like a Bruno, Bruno Mars or a, or someone y you know what I mean? Something that I think Beyonce would be, would be killer in that venue because she's so creative. I, I think that that would be a perfect, perfect space for her. You know, she would come up with the [00:32:47] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. It would. [00:32:48] Jerry Ghionis: best ideas. [00:32:49] Jerry Ghionis: Yeah. [00:32:49] Choosing the Right Seat: A Cautionary Tale --- [00:32:49] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~just be careful of, of the seats that apparently there's seats that are underneath like, like a balcony row or whatever, and then you just have no view. [00:32:59] Jerry Ghionis: [00:33:00] Alright. Right. [00:33:00] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So, [00:33:01] Jerry Ghionis: That's [00:33:02] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so yeah, I don't think, I don't think like the ticket masters or whatever have like the seat view of it yet, so you can't like see what your view would look like from wherever you get to guess, so, yeah. [00:33:14] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~okay. Now my next question to you is a deep one. [00:33:19] Can you share an outlined breakdown of your workflow from lead to delivery? --- [00:33:19] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Looking at your, at your wedding business,~ um,~ can you share from a 30,000 foot view down, can you share an outline breakdown of your workflow from lead to delivery? [00:33:32] Jerry Ghionis: lead as in once I get an inquiry. [00:33:34] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yes. [00:33:36] Jerry Ghionis: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, of course. [00:33:37] The Inquiry Process: Converting Emails into In-Person Meetings --- [00:33:37] Jerry Ghionis: ~Um, ~so, you know, we get an inquiry these days. It's usually via email. The number one priority for that inquiry is to convert it into an in-person inquiry. Usually. Now most of my clients are still interstate or overseas. I haven't really promoted myself locally in Las Vegas. [00:33:57] Jerry Ghionis: I'm more known as probably a portrait fashion,~ uh,~ commercial [00:34:00] photographer in Vegas. But from a wedding perspective, it's usually, you know, via, via an email. And sometimes obviously the question that always people always ask is always about price. You know how much for your wedding photography? And we would often sidestep step that question with a congratulations on the announcement of your engagement. [00:34:19] Jerry Ghionis: ~Uh, ~what a great time of year to get married. We are free for your wedding day. If I have any chance of not only meeting your expectations,~ uh,~ let alone exceeding them, I'd love to meet with you and your fiance in person,~ uh,~ or at the very least over Zoom. And if not even on a phone call, is there a particular time of day? [00:34:36] Jerry Ghionis: ~Um, ~and,~ uh,~ and a, and a and a convenient phone number that I can call you on, yada, yada, yada. Now, sometimes when we are crazy busy, Melissa will just send the prices and be done, like knowing that it'll put off probably nine outta 10 clients, and if they answer back, then they're serious. When we're not so crazy busy, then we'll try the again, we'll, we'll go the approach [00:35:00] of,~ um,~ you know, trying to get them in person. [00:35:02] Jerry Ghionis: And sometimes we may give them a ballpark figure. So it depends on the time of year and how busy we are as to how we answer that email question. If they ring me, I know that I'll usually get them to a Zoom meeting or an in-person inquiry if they in fact live locally, which again, is mostly pretty rare. [00:35:20] The Booking Process: Creating the Perfect Client --- [00:35:20] Jerry Ghionis: Once,~ uh,~ we do that,~ um,~ they basically, you know, they book us, they'll pay 50% of the, the, the, the initial booking, like whatever that total is in their mind, that collection fee. ~Um, ~and we call that an initial investment. Basically it means we've only just begun, you know. ~Um, ~then from there we, we will communicate with them and condition them we'll. [00:35:40] Jerry Ghionis: Like we're creating the perfect client. We're telling them what to expect on the wedding day, what to expect after the wedding day, how, what's the sales approach and all that kind of stuff. [00:35:49] The Wedding Day: Ensuring Everything Goes Smoothly --- [00:35:49] Jerry Ghionis: Then we have about a pre-wet meeting, about a month before the wedding. ~Um, ~that's where, or by the way, so at this point, even on the first inquiry, even before they book me, I will ask them, what time are you thinking of getting [00:36:00] married? [00:36:00] Jerry Ghionis: And I, I never, I say, thinking of as in its variable. Then they'll tell me five o'clock, and then they say, well, are you doing, are you happy to do a reveal? And they say, no. And then I just say. This ain't gonna work. Like, you know, if you're gonna get married at five o'clock and in winter and you've got a full, you know, full mass in the Catholic church, and then you want family shots, congratulations. [00:36:23] Jerry Ghionis: Bridal party shots not do reveal, it's unrealistic. I say, now that I know what your expectations are, I don't believe I can meet them, let alone exceed them. So I'm not your guy. And I've said that many times. So, but what I do though is may I recommend a timeline for you? And then I, I literally take ownership of that timeline,~ uh,~ and then say, ask 'em about their, their cultural differences, their ethnicity, because they could be South Asian, they could have a tea ceremony, they could be having a Greek Orthodox wedding. [00:36:51] Jerry Ghionis: I find out a bit about, you know, who they are, what their expectations are, what kind of ceremony they're having. I always say partner, I'd never say. I never assume [00:37:00] heterosexual. And I think that's a mistake that many of us made maybe several years ago when, you know, when gay marriage wasn't legal and all that kind of stuff, whatever, we just were conditioned to say, husband, wife. [00:37:10] Jerry Ghionis: So, you know, those things you sort of learn. ~Um, ~and once that happens, the good thing is that, see, most, most photographers will answer that price question within 30 seconds, and then the whole conversation won't last more than a minute. My phone calls could last literally half an hour or maybe 40 minutes, even on the first inquiry, I. [00:37:31] Jerry Ghionis: Or the Zoom call. Zoom call could be an hour, an hour and a half. So, so I've taken the care, I've given a good experience, I've shown how I nurture them, how I'm providing them with the understanding of how to bring out the best in their story, their, their legacy, my input, and all that kind of stuff. So now they leave that inquiry with a very strong sense of this is what it'll feel like working with with us. [00:37:55] Jerry Ghionis: So once I get them on the call, they will usually book. So they'll book [00:38:00] 50%, will will cover it. We go through there, like I said, we about a month before the wedding will go through all the details. I ask them very specific questions. ~Um, ~I, all the names and relationships I say, are, are your parents still with us? [00:38:12] Jerry Ghionis: Hashtag are they alive? ~Um, ~are are they together or as in, are they on speaking terms? So then I start looking at all the dynamics. ~Uh, ~the siblings are the children, the, the bridal party. Then I even ask them, are there any family politics that I need to know about? ~Um. ~So they're all important questions. So I, I gather the information and then we have a, a form that's, it's a pre-wedding meeting. [00:38:34] Jerry Ghionis: Reminders, this is where the family shots are gonna be. This is the time that I'm gonna get to your house. This is how you need to be dressed when I show up, and so on and so forth. So no one can say to me, well, I didn't know where the family photographs were gonna be. I didn't know I wasn't ready, or You didn't do enough photographs. [00:38:49] Jerry Ghionis: I'm like, you acknowledged with a signature that you were gonna be ready as a bride up your, your hair and makeup was completely done in a robe, ready to get into your dress, [00:39:00] the groom. You said that you,~ uh,~ we acknowledged that you were gonna be in your shoes, your shoes, pants and shirt, ready to have your tie and vest and jacket put on,~ um,~ blah, blah, blah. [00:39:09] Jerry Ghionis: Like they, they acknowledge with the signature everything that we have discussed. ~Um, ~and then the wedding day happens sometimes even the day before the wedding. I'll say, text him and say, can't wait to see how gorgeous you look tomorrow. I'll see you at this time. In a rob ready to get into your address at this address. [00:39:27] Jerry Ghionis: And then sometimes people say, I'm like, oh my God. Like I, my, I, I've changed the hotel. Luckily you texted me. I totally forgot the address is now here. So that covers your ass a little bit too. And it reminds them how important it is to get ready on time to take, take advantage of the best story that I can tell. [00:39:45] Post-Wedding: Delivering the Final Product --- [00:39:45] Jerry Ghionis: Once the wedding is done within about two weeks, the, you know, I personally will cull the wedding. ~Um, ~I will upload it to a gallery and they enjoy the gallery for two, three weeks or so. We make it time for the [00:40:00] album plan and that will usually be done during the day. That's really important. You will make better sales during the day. [00:40:07] Jerry Ghionis: People are brighter. That's earlier, they, they're in a better disposition. Not many people are, are inspired after an eight, nine day. An an hour of work in a cubicle and then an hour and a half in traffic to go to a photographer and spend three, $4,000 more than they originally intended. That was a lesson that I learned very quickly. [00:40:23] Jerry Ghionis: So make the time during the day, and even if it takes a month before the wedding and you say, Hey, a month after your wedding, two months from now, let's make a time for the album plan. We don't do any album planes later than one o'clock. ~Um, ~and then, so I pre-designed the album with my favorites. They know this. [00:40:39] Jerry Ghionis: And then I pre-designed the album with,~ um,~ more sides than they originally invested in. And they know this for 100% certainty. Also, referencing the conversation that we had a bit earlier about that. And then I sit with them, I show them the, you know, uh, the, the, the slideshow,~ um,~ of the album. ~Um, ~they've absorbed their photographs already at [00:41:00] this point. [00:41:00] Jerry Ghionis: And then I walk through every spread selling it like it's gold. And then inevitably I've gotta tell them the price because certainly people will buy more emotionally rather than logically. And then in inevitably they're gonna want to cut some sides or consolidate. We do that and then, you know, and we end up selling a lot more than most. [00:41:21] Jerry Ghionis: That's, that's the quick synopsis. [00:41:23] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, no, yeah, no, it's, it's great. There's a lot of, there's a lot of details in here, and I think that's a word that,~ um,~ that fits this entire conversation really well. From, from that, right outta the gate, you take your time with every action you, that you take with your clients from the point of the lead has come in, you take your time and you,~ um,~ gather and share the enough details to ensure that they're well educated, but you're also covering yourself and having areas to reference to re and re reassure [00:42:00] along the way. [00:42:01] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~that's been a, a pretty common trend in this whole conversation, which is really interesting. And I, it,~ um,~ it helped me learn a lot about you as a photographer. ~Um. ~A business owner in general,~ um,~ that that's, that that's the pride that you take in your work. ~Um, ~and that's so, it's so interesting. [00:42:16] Jerry Ghionis: I appreciate that. I, it, it's funny because people think that, that if you're not a great photographer, as good as a person down the street, that you can't compete. First of all, you can compete with anyone in the world by simply being meaningful. You can be a crappy photographer and be meaningful and still sell a lot. [00:42:35] Jerry Ghionis: You can be a crappy photographer and have great customer service and people dunno the difference between two buck chuck or a $30 bottle of wine. So, and what I'm saying is that craft is important. I'm the first one to promote craft, let alone in camera craft. I've been doing it for, like I said, 23 years teaching photographers. [00:42:54] Jerry Ghionis: So I love that. But the easiest way that you can compete with anyone [00:43:00] apart from being meaningful is customer service and a, a good client experience. It's not that difficult. Just thoughtful approaches to your process is. I mean, I'll, I'll give you an example, right? [00:43:11] The Portrait Session: A Detailed Breakdown --- [00:43:11] Jerry Ghionis: If, if someone, if someone was to come to do a portrait session with me, let's say you're a heterosexual couple,~ um,~ I'll reference one I did recently. [00:43:17] Jerry Ghionis: They're in their fifties, right? Heterosexual couple. They've come to Vegas. I'll pick them up from their hotel. I don't even assume they've got a car. I say, may I pick you up from your hotel? They say, yes, absolutely. That'd be wonderful. Great. So we picked them up. Now the, and now before the portrait session, by the way, we've talked about, you know, their styling,~ uh,~ all the clothes they're gonna wear and what we're trying to achieve and all that kind of stuff. [00:43:40] Jerry Ghionis: Often I'm texting like some, some inspiration ideas that they've given to me. And, and then,~ um,~ the wife or the mother, you know, she'll basically sometimes text me dresses and even the suits that, that he's gonna wear, whatever. So we, we, we make it playful and fun. Then I pick them up. Then I. Like the,~ um,~ [00:44:00] you know, the, the wife, the mother, you know, she's getting her hair and makeup done while she's doing that. [00:44:06] Jerry Ghionis: We've got beautiful music playing. We've got like some beautiful cheese. We've got, you know, champagne, mimosa, whatever, whatever they want. And I'll normally ask those questions in passing during the inquiry, like, Hey, what's your favorite snack? And I'll say, what's my favorite? Like, I'm, Hey, I'm hungry, I'm thirsty. [00:44:22] Jerry Ghionis: I'm just about to get something. What do what? You know, what are you like? I say it like that where I'm disguising it, then I write it down, and then I'm bringing that drink to them on that day. Oh my God, you remember? That's amazing. So they'll remember that more than even your great photography. And then now I'm photographing the guy in the studio, which is in eyesight of where the makeup's getting done and what we've done,~ um,~ in our studio. [00:44:43] Jerry Ghionis: And for those who've been watching me online teaching for years and so on, last several years, we have what we call Jerry Vision. I basically have a monitor recorder that syncs wirelessly to my, to my, my camera. So. The, the, basically I'm recording [00:45:00] what's in my EVF, so now as I'm photographing the guy, the girl is watching what's in my camera as she's getting her hair and makeup done. [00:45:09] Jerry Ghionis: And then we've literally got oohs and ahs. Oh my God, honey, you look incredible. Now he's obviously a bit nervous and, and most guys are a bit awkward, whatever, but I'm like making him look like a badass right now. She's getting excited at the thought of, of getting involved in the shoot, but she's getting hair and makeup done, but I'm nailing these shots and practically a whole album of him before she even steps in front of the camera. [00:45:32] Jerry Ghionis: And no joke, this is, this has happened three times. I remember a guy coming in with a corporate suit, like a very, you know, just a corporate looking suit. I go, dude, like he's got this dress and we talked about this. I haven't got anything else. I said, do you, have you got a budget of a few hundred bucks? He goes, yes, we're going for a drive. [00:45:48] Jerry Ghionis: I would literally drive to the Southern outlets, which is about, you know, 10 minutes away from my studio, I'll go to this place where I know the suits are made. Well. But affordable. We'll pick a suit, I'll help, I'll [00:46:00] style them. They get the hem done while we have a drink for 20 minutes, come back and then we come back and we're still in time to do shots of him before she gets her hair and makeup done. [00:46:11] Jerry Ghionis: At this time she's done lipstick. No. So we have lunch. I provide them lunch. So we either go somewhere or I bring lunch in, then she puts Lippy on, then I photograph her on her own to give the guy a break. Then the couple, and then I might zigzag and I take my time. And then at the end of it, you know, it's, so what I'm saying is that we've all had a great experience and then often I will end up like, you're all dressed all nice. [00:46:39] Jerry Ghionis: I said, guys, you have to go to this incredible restaurant. I said, we know restaurants that maybe tourists don't know. Can we book a restaurant for you? ~Uh, ~and this was probably prearranged before they even came to the shoot. So now we've booked it. And if they, if we know they're, I don't know, sometimes, not all the time, sometimes I might even ring up the restaurant and pay for their [00:47:00] dinner. [00:47:01] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Hmm. [00:47:02] Jerry Ghionis: all of a sudden they've had this, they've been picked up, they've been pampered, I've helped style them. They've had cheese and crackers and mimosas and beers and ~uh, ~we've done the shoot. We've had a laugh, we've taken our time. ~Um, ~they've seen the photographs happening with conditioning and creating the perfect client and then give them a great experience. [00:47:19] Jerry Ghionis: And now that's their Vegas thing. And to be honest, we haven't even advertised it, but we're sort of getting known in various circles of this is what you'll get. And I've gotta be honest too, half of my clients these days are photographers because they wanna experience what it's like to be pampered so that they can then actually know what that experience can be like for their particular clients as well. [00:47:39] Jerry Ghionis: So there's, I mean, there's a lot more to it, but you know, that, that sort of gives you an idea of another sort of, call it workflow, you know. [00:47:46] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: didn't you photograph Sarah and Dario recently? Semi-recently. [00:47:51] Jerry Ghionis: Yes. I, yeah, well, I photographed their wedding. ~Uh, ~that was pretty cool. [00:47:54] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Oh, you did her a full wedding too? I didn't realize that. Okay. [00:47:56] Jerry Ghionis: yeah, I photographed their wedding. I photographed Susan Stripling,~ um,~ [00:48:00] and Bill, her boyfriend. ~Um, ~I I could, I could just rattle off a, a whole bunch of people that you may or may not know, but, you know, [00:48:08] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. ~Uh, ~Susan was episode 15 on the show, and Bill was episode 28 on the show. We just had Bill on, he had a fantastic monologue about,~ um, uh, ~off camera lighting myths and like debunking them [00:48:22] Jerry Ghionis: that's funny. That's funny. [00:48:24] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. ~Um, ~so, ~uh, ~I, we can't wrap up this show without asking one thing about ai. [00:48:29] What does the future of AI in photography look like to you? --- [00:48:29] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw an AI question at you. ~Um, ~so I know that you're not deep into the AI world right, as I am right now, right. But,~ um,~ what does the future of AI and photography look like to you? [00:48:48] Jerry Ghionis: I think it's twofold. I think companies like yours are very clever because you are helping the community get to destinations quicker. It's corrective, it's beautifying. I'm all for [00:49:00] it. I think AI from a correction and beautifying perspective and shortcuts of doing things manually, no different than doing film and, and digital. [00:49:09] Jerry Ghionis: Like, it's just a, it's a natural evolution of our industry. So from that perspective, I embrace it. Fantastic. The future of AI in terms of, you know, punching in a few words,~ um,~ into a program and getting an image, what I can't fathom is creatives being creatively satisfied with that. How, how, how on earth would you as an artist punch some words in, get an image and feel creatively satisfied and responsible for that artwork? [00:49:47] Jerry Ghionis: I'm not saying there's not a market for it, there obviously is. I just think, I think the commercial world is dying a very quick death right now, like product photography and all that kind of stuff. I, you know, [00:50:00] I think that's just, it's probably already dead or going to be, or there might be some niches there or photographers who can do that. [00:50:06] Jerry Ghionis: ~Um, ~in terms of domestic portraiture as in wedding and portrait, like you've domestic photography, I think there'll always be a market for flattering and meaningful photography. But if you, I'm sure even now is possible, but if you can just photograph a face from 10 different angles and then all of a sudden create a wedding album and, and a circumstance that didn't happen, how shallow, I mean, you know. [00:50:32] Jerry Ghionis: Yeah. And, and I get that we're living in a, in, in, in a, in that, that world where a lot of things are fake. ~Um, ~but we're all used to seeing life through a filter and people's lives through a filter. I'm only gonna share my best meal and my best holiday, and now I'm gonna face tune my, my, my face. I'm gonna give you a different impression of what reality is. [00:50:51] Jerry Ghionis: And I think that we often dismiss a younger generation. That's all they want. I think that we're already starting to see that people want truth, [00:51:00] authenticity. They want vulnerability. ~Um, ~and, and as you get older, and like I said, I, I feel like I want more meaningfulness in what I do. So you know, whether I'll embrace the technology for. [00:51:14] Jerry Ghionis: F for shortcuts, again, for corrective purpose or for beautifying. ~Um, ~even just putting a sky in, I feel a bit weird about, you know, ~um, ~because that wasn't the sky that happened on that, on that, on that day. Now if you're doing a competition and they allow it, or whatever it is that you do have at it, do what you do. [00:51:31] Jerry Ghionis: But like I said, I, I, I, I mean, I was with Rocco and Cora, who's an incredible photographer and a friend of mine, and we were talking about AI and, and you know, we both had a, an analogy of, of how we feel about it. Forget about,~ uh,~ as in typing in the words and getting an image back. And he was, we are having dinner and he points to the Caravaggio book that he has on his bookshelf, and he says, imagine now me going to Caravaggio and saying, I want you to paint [00:52:00] a compelling, dramatic portrait. [00:52:02] Jerry Ghionis: Of an image done with a, a window light that's a little bit higher,~ um,~ detail in the black, something very dramatic, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you commission this portrait and he does this painting for you. And then you take it and you go, ah, look at me. This is amazing. This is my painting. So, and I know that the people do it. [00:52:22] Jerry Ghionis: They just want to create and have fun. That's different. I'm talking about people who take ownership, residents, potential residents. So that's like commissioning, you know, Caravaggio to do a painting for you. [00:52:33] Jerry Ghionis: And then he, he gives you the painting and then now you claim ownership that this was your creation. And I get that people do it for fun. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about someone saying, this is my artwork. I, I, I find I have a, I have a creative problem with that, you know what I mean? A an integrity problem with that. [00:52:52] Jerry Ghionis: ~Um, ~and for me, just generally, I think AI done from that perspective, I liken it to lip-syncing to a karaoke singer.[00:53:00] [00:53:01] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: that's a, that's a good, it's a good comparison. [00:53:02] Jerry Ghionis: like, you're not only, you're not only singing someone else's song, you are lip syncing to someone else who's singing that person's song. I'm like, so like I said, I know that. People will have, you know, big arguments about this. [00:53:14] Jerry Ghionis: I just [00:53:14] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. Oh [00:53:15] Jerry Ghionis: my, my personal perspective, creative beautify, fantastic. If you wanna do it for fun, fantastic. But as an artist, it, it will make you dormant. It, it'll literally make you brain dead. ~Um, ~you know, and directing words into a, into a thing, there's a skill to it, no doubt. But that's like, you know, ghost writing. [00:53:36] Jerry Ghionis: Hey, write about, write a biography about me, and here's just a few notes, and fill in the rest and hopefully it's good, you know? [00:53:45] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Yeah. The, like everything else, everybody has their opinions, right? ~Uh, ~on, on this topic, this is why I ask, because it's, it's,~ um,~ it's, it's still a very interesting and hot topic,~ um,~ in among the industry and among the world, in all [00:54:00] industries. And,~ um,~ I love hearing from creatives their, their perspective on this because in, in many ways, like you're impacted by it, right? [00:54:12] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Even if it's not directly to you, you're still impacted. 'cause it's, you're in the industry, right? So, ~um, ~yeah. So. We can all have our opinions, of course, we can all respect everybody's opinions, so, ~um, ~totally cool. ~Um, ~okay, now,~ uh,~ as we wrap this up, I would love for you to share,~ um,~ for anybody who doesn't know what, what the ICON awards are, what, what, what that's about. [00:54:36] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~Um, ~and then of course, where all the listeners can learn more about you, find your education, see your awesome photography, and all that fun stuff. [00:54:45] Jerry Ghionis: No thank you. So, ~um, ~you know, the Icon Awards is just continuing w PPI's,~ um,~ you know, legacy and passing the torch to Melissa and I,~ um,~ in that,~ uh,~ in 2022 W PPI's 40 year traditional competition had, had been,~ uh,~ laid to [00:55:00] rest, so to speak, even though that Melissa and I ourselves had managed it,~ uh,~ but certainly we weren't responsible financially for it. [00:55:06] Jerry Ghionis: We've,~ uh,~ picked up where they left off. We've matched everyone's accreditation and designation. And we've now,~ uh,~ started the Icon International Photography Awards. That's icon awards.com spelled correctly. And,~ um,~ it starts off with a digital submission, which has already happened for this year. The top 10 finalists are invited to enter their physical print and that the live judging is happening at WPPI,~ uh,~ in early March, which we're really excited about. [00:55:31] Jerry Ghionis: So if you can't come in person, you'll be able to watch it online. ~Um, ~and then if you wanna follow us, just make sure you, you know, you jump on Icon Awards and,~ um,~ follow our newsletter there or follow us on,~ um,~ my Icon Awards,~ um, uh, ~and social media platforms, or the Icon International Photography Awards Facebook page. [00:55:46] Jerry Ghionis: So it's fantastic. There's a great platform where we critique Imageners, where we get, give you accreditation, people, publisher in a, in a book, all that kind of stuff. As far as myself personally,~ um,~ I have a lot of educational offerings,~ uh,~ and [00:56:00] or if people wanna be photographed by me,~ uh,~ the reason I, I just give them a simple domain, Jerry jerry jerry.com,~ uh,~ with a j. [00:56:07] Jerry Ghionis: ~Uh, ~people don't forget it very easily. And if you forget that, go to the my bio,~ uh,~ link in my Instagram and,~ uh,~ jerry jerry jerry.com, and all my upcoming workshops, seminars, digital offerings,~ uh,~ if you wanna be photographed by me, if you wanna see weddings, portraits, fashion is all there. So all good. [00:56:24] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Awesome. In, in preparation for the, for the episode. I did, I did,~ um,~ pull up like your, your socials for, for like the podcast metadata stuff, and I saw, I'm like, he owns jerry jerry jerry.com, so I, of course I go to it, see what it is. I'm like, does Scott Scott Scott dot com exist? If so, I'm buying it. It does not exist. [00:56:44] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It somebody has it. I was like, this is brilliant. [00:56:47] Jerry Ghionis: well, it's funny because I remember back in the days of Jerry Springer when he was sort of popularized, when that, when he was massive, right. ~Um, ~this is no shit In my seminars, I would be, I would be off stage around [00:57:00] the corner and then I'd, I'd record this Jerry chant and then I'd walk in and give high fives to all the audience and it was hysterical. [00:57:09] Jerry Ghionis: I, I, you know, it was just this fun, stupid tongue in cheek thing. And then just, people just start chanting my name for no reasons. During shoots during. Seminars or if I take a good photograph or whatever and it just stuck. And so, I dunno how many years ago it was, I think 15 odd years ago, it could be more. [00:57:26] Jerry Ghionis: I, I said, oh, I wonder if Jerry, Jerry, Jerry as in Marsha, Marsha, Marsha [00:57:30] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. [00:57:31] Jerry Ghionis: Re bunch is available. I'm like, oh, that's good. And then I went Jerry jerry.com that's available. So [00:57:37] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: you, you got that one too. [00:57:38] Jerry Ghionis: yeah, I haven't used it for anything yet, but I'm like, I don't know. Maybe, maybe I might need that for something else. But it's fantastic because I can just in, in conversation, if someone is in passing or whatever, you're a photographer. [00:57:51] Jerry Ghionis: Oh, how do I find you? Jerry, jerry jerry.com Remember Jerry with spelt with a J like Jerry Seinfeld and, you know, and they get it. So it's actually quite fun. [00:58:00] So my encouragement to you is if you can own your name, th Rice, [00:58:04] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: or twice. Yeah. Yeah. [00:58:05] Jerry Ghionis: ~um, ~yeah, it, it, it actually has worked really well for business, so it's great. [00:58:08] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: That is, that is awesome. That is awesome. Well, thank you so much for, for taking the time to chat with me today. There was, like I said,~ um,~ a little while ago, I learned so much about you that I didn't, I didn't know originally. ~Um, ~I'm sure there's a, everybody else listening also learned a lot, so many takeaways. [00:58:23] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So I, I really, really appreciate the time,~ um,~ and all the great details you shared. [00:58:27] Jerry Ghionis: Thank you, mate. I appreciate it, Sure. And ~uh, ~also thank you,~ uh,~ again too for supporting the ICON Awards because I know you're a category sponsor, so we really appreciate that. And, and it's a cliche, but I'm telling you now for a fact that, that these awards couldn't happen the way they happened without companies and supporters like yours. [00:58:44] Jerry Ghionis: So we appreciate your support from that perspective as well. So thank you for the time and thank you for allowing me to share some inspiration today. It'd be great. [00:58:51] ​ [00:59:00]