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[00:00:00]
[00:00:14] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Well, Koko, I’ve been, uh, I’ve been looking forward to this for some time and, uh, this is going to be a really fun conversation that I think a lot of people are going to. I. Walk away with some good nuggets of information, some inspiration and whatnot. ~Um, ~you know, for those who don’t know your work, I am going to describe how I think
[00:00:36] Koko King: Oh.
[00:00:36] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: work, uh, the vibe that it gives me, and then I’d like for you to share your perspective of what you’re going for with your work, right, with the, with the weddings you photograph.
[00:00:52] Koko King: Okay.
[00:00:53] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so for me, when I look at your work, I see some, [00:01:00] I’m gonna say standard wedding photos, right? But then I see a lot of whimsical,~ um,~ going for the, for the creative side of things, more than just like what every wedding photographer tries to deliver, right? Going, going from you, you’re sort of doing both.
You’re giving what people expect.
[00:01:18] Koko King: Yeah.
[00:01:18] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Then you’re giving this whimsical, more creative, artsy,~ um,~ photos as well. And that’s, so that’s how I would describe what I see is the, the combination of standard and whimsical.
[00:01:32] Koko King: Okay.
[00:01:33] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: and that’s why I was curious how you would describe your work, because I find that,~ um,~ when, when, when one person describes it versus the actual artist. There’s sometimes is a, is a, is a, is an overlap, and sometimes it’s completely not. So I’m so curious.
[00:01:53] Koko King: Uh, I mean, it’s interesting because. I don’t think anyone’s ever asked me this [00:02:00] question. ~Um, ~but I’ve also never done a podcast about my work. I’ve done like an interview about like editing style, but I’ve never, so I’ve never been asked this question. ~Um, ~yeah, like whimsy, I, yeah, probably. Yes. So.
[00:02:18] The Journey into Wedding Photography
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[00:02:18] Koko King: All I know is when my partner, Robert and I got into weddings three years ago, we recognized that there was a little bit of a, a gap in the market.
~Um, ~I don’t know about globally, but certainly locally, we, I would look at things and I was a little bit bored in the lack of. Adventurous quality that the photos were being taken in. Like it was just pretty, everything kind of looked the same, which isn’t a bad thing because there’s a lot of beauty in just preserving the day appropriately and making sure that you photograph a wedding in a certain way so that the viewpoint.
Feels appropriate. But then I also realized that there’s [00:03:00] parts in the day that do and should feel a little bit more like whimsical or fun, artistic, moody, all of these things.
[00:03:09] Balancing Standard and Whimsical Photos
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[00:03:15] Koko King: And so when doing photography for the weddings, honestly, I was like, okay, well yes, let’s provide the standard photos, but with that, let’s make sure that even the standard photos offer a little bit of variation and.
And typically even the standard photos I like, I have like a rule of thumb. It’s called TML, so texture, movement, or lighting. So even like a standard photo, like say it’s just a couple’s portrait, I still want it to be lit beautifully so that there’s some visual interest even within that standard frame.
Or maybe it’s a standard frame, but like we’ll lower the shutter down to. One over 40 or one over 60 so that there’s a little bit of a pulse in the photo. So even our standard photos I still find, have a little bit of whimsy or allure to them. Just [00:04:00] to, just to create a less of a disconnect between like the weird and the wonderful and the standard.
’cause even the standard is still a little bit, oh, a little bit weird. Like a little bit different. ~Um, ~but honestly, like, yeah, I would say like, ~um, ~I don’t even know, like. Standard whimsy. Yeah, like they’re, it’s interesting ’cause like I’m really loud and ~um, ~almost like manic in my energy sometimes, but I find our photos are pretty calm and serene and beautiful and maybe like, thought provoking.
And I actually find that to be a lot different than my personality. Like my personality is very like, but then my photos are like, ah.
Well, yeah, like, like standard whimsy, you know, making sure that you preserve the day, but offering visual interests for the people that hire you, that do have an appreciation for,~ um,~ art, creativity and something unique and that, that will help separate their day from possibly their [00:05:00] peers or other people.
~Um, ~yeah, because it can’t be all weird.
[00:05:05] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: of course, and I think having that. Like you said,~ um,~ slowing the shutter down just a, a hair
[00:05:12] Koko King: Yeah,
[00:05:13] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: that extra something that’s more you, but still having the standard. Right. And I’m using air quotes, the,
[00:05:20] Koko King: I know. I know. Yeah.
[00:05:22] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: uh, look of a wedding photo just with that little flavor and then giving the,~ um,~ almost opposite end where it’s even more. You,
[00:05:33] Koko King: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:33] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I think is a really good balance to be able to give to, to your couples. I think I am, I’m, I’m pretty confident even without knowing your couples, that they’re finding you and hiring you because of what you’re doing.
[00:05:49] Koko King: Yeah.
[00:05:50] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Like they’re, they, they see it. They know, oh, I want that. It’s not what Joe Schmo down the street is doing.
~Um, ~and. It stands out and it’s [00:06:00] more us and it’s more fun. And so I think,~ um,~ I, I love, I love it. I mean, your, your work is so good. ~Um, ~it’s so fun to, to, to browse and, and whatnot. So I can only imagine what a, what a wedding album looks like.
[00:06:11] Koko King: Oh, I’m, uh, like, I mean, I’m very. Honest with what a final album looks like. I have on Instagram, like a subscriber group, and I share frequently full albums because I don’t want people to put our brand on a pedestal or think that like, this is one a huge concern that I actually have when clients book us.
’cause it’s mostly hiring through Instagram
and I don’t want them to think that a full album looks like my Instagram. ’cause my Instagram is like 90% weird and like 10% standard. Whereas a final deliverable is about 70% standard and 30% weird. So whenever I book clients, like I actually give them, it’s called a sample album, and it’s one album that holds like 30 folders and it’s just four to [00:07:00] 500 photos from a bunch of different weddings that we’ve done.
So they can actually see the, the diversity of our skill because we have a lot of people who. Our, they love moodiness, you know, and it’s like November in Canada and it’s like a dark venue. But then when you have people who are on a beach under harsh sunlight, or maybe you’re outside a bunch, around a bunch of green, or you’re in the city and there’s a bunch of blue.
So I don’t want people to hire us based off of like. One album. And candidly, this sample album that I provide to them is some of our best weddings and some of like our not better weddings from like, when we started, like I’ll show them like, Hey, this is kind of my best, but then, hey, this is kind of the worst.
But even the worst isn’t bad. ~Um, ~but like I, I, I get very afraid as a service provider and an artist to set too high of an expectation. And it’s almost like, what’s this saying? Like under. Underperform over deliver. Yeah. Yeah. That like I almost like be like, Hey guys, yes, this is my [00:08:00] Instagram. Thank you for inquiring.
Here is the sample album, or here’s a bunch of full albums. Because I do want you to see that it’s not all weird and thankfully it actually works to our advantage because a lot of the times people will say, Hey, I love your stuff, but do you do these standard photos, air quotes? Do you do. Vibrant colors instead of muted tones.
And I’m like, oh my like holy shit. Yes. Like so much. So like I know how to take an in sharp photo. Like I know like we have a very diverse skill set and I do on Instagram only showcase almost like one level to it, but it’s intentional because I do want us to stand out. ~Um. ~And it’s almost like that’s the type of people I curate our grid to attract a certain type of client.
And then from there we have the conversation of, thank you. But also, no, we do do the normal stuff.
[00:08:55] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: right.
[00:08:55] Instagram as a Key Business Tool
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[00:08:55] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: you mentioned something really interesting that, uh, [00:09:00] I wasn’t expecting to dive into, but we’re gonna do this. ~Um, ~Instagram is your Lead and booking source, which is really interesting. ~Um, ~so obviously you already mentioned you’re, you’re using this,~ um,~ like private group chat, right? ~Um, ~in there for, for everything you just mentioned. But are there any, uh, third party non not made by meta,~ um,~ tools that you’re using to help with your Instagram growth and engagement and things like that? That,~ um,~ have played like a pivotable, a pivot. Pivotable, pivotable, what’s the word?
[00:09:37] Koko King: Yeah, I like, yeah, like,
[00:09:39] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I’m gonna go with the word vital. The, a vital role in your gr ~um, ~success on Instagram. I.
[00:09:45] Koko King: ~um, ~no, I mean, we, I, I will discuss the sequence of our growth in this industry and I’ll finish off on why we only use Instagram. ~Um, ~and this isn’t to, [00:10:00] this isn’t too. Sound like cocky or showboating? I think it’s just to help ensure that people have more confidence to be creative. So I started photography during Covid, uh, five years ago.
I’d never picked up a camera in my life and within the first few months I was, uh, photographing like fitness competitors and I was able to turn it into, ~um. ~Like a six figure career within like a few months. And then I did that for two years and then I got bored of it, like doing a lot of, uh, fitness photo shoots and working with some models and doing some like jewelry campaigns and stuff.
And then when a friend asked me to photograph a wedding and I had never even been to a wedding,~ I had to Google~~ like, what is a, what is a ceremony? And I was on YouTube looking at like how people, um, were, uh, like. Photographing and videoing weddings and stuff.~
[00:10:43] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~on. Hold on one sec. Your audio just dropped out. It~
[00:10:43] Koko King: ~Oh, sorry. I think,~
~oh, sorry. Okay. I’m sorry. I think a call came through.~
~Um, yeah. Um, I’ll pick up to, what was I saying? So yeah, we started photography, weddings, ~did our first weddings, and then I realized, oh, like this is the, if we do do weddings, there’s a huge space to fill. So I started. A wedding Instagram,
and I just started posting the images that I like, so like [00:11:00] moody and weird.
But from that, it started to get a lot of traction within the wedding space, but only from photographers. So like it was only photographers coming to my page and being like, oh wow. Like I love that. This is amazing. And kind of using our Instagram as a source of inspiration. Which is lovely, but at the same time I’m like, you know, this isn’t gonna pay my bills.
Like photographers aren’t gonna pay my bills, you know, ~um, ~if I continue in this direction, I have to try to appeal to clients.~ Um, ~but I didn’t really know how, ’cause I did, I was,~ um,~ selfish in the sense that I didn’t wanna break from how I was posting. Like I didn’t wanna start posting the basic stuff, so I just kept posting the weird stuff.
But what’s crazy is all these photographers ended up like resharing my work on their Instagram. So what happened is our popularity within this space specifically grew because our peers were like coming to our page, finding inspiration and then posting about it. And then I [00:12:00] guess clients that were. On their page would see our stuff.
So then our business started to grow because clients started to find us. And it’s all been through Instagram and it’s all been through,~ um,~ other artists sharing our work that we’ve been like discovered by clients. ~Um, ~but like, I think we’ve been hired like twice by like a planner, maybe three times. ~Um, ~otherwise it just comes from like Instagram inquiries that go to our website.
But it’s all been, the growth of our business has been because of other photographers. Like even we photographed the and Bonnie pre-wedding in June, and that’s like the richest wedding in history. And the only reason that happened is the person who booked us found us through like Zel, like Zel. ~Um, ~I feel like everyone know who Zel is.
And he posted a video of like 20, 24 photographers to watch. And all of these accolades or success that we’ve [00:13:00] had within a short period of time has only come through Instagram. And it’s only come from other photographers coming to our page and drawing inspiration from it and being excited and sharing it.
And it’s been,~ um,~ it’s been great so far. So because of that, if it’s not broke, like why fix it? Like if there’s a lull in business, then I am, I’m sure we’ll do the SEO stuff or do. I don’t even know what else you can do. Like start schmoozing with planners. Like I’ll start to schmooze, I’ll start to like, I don’t know, but like, until that happens, Instagram,~ um,~ yeah, it’s been, it’s been insane.
Yeah. It’s been working, so I’m like, I don’t know what else to do.
[00:13:39] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: What’s your,~ um,~ what’s your workflow like for scheduling your Instagrams? Are you doing a daily post? You’re doing a couple times a week? What’s that look like?
[00:13:50] Koko King: ~Um, ~so I mean, grid curation is something I’m like really passionate about because it’s something that transpires onto your website and into final deliverable for a client. [00:14:00] So in terms of visually, I do plan colors and posts almost like seasonal. Like right now I’m in like my blues and my tan era, but it’s appropriate for the summertime,~ um,~ for posting.
I, man, I’m such a. If someone said, I’ll buy you a lottery ticket every time you post on Instagram, people would fucking post. Sorry. Can I swear? I don’t know if I can swear.
[00:14:23] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I can mark it as
[00:14:24] Koko King: Okay.
[00:14:25] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: explicit.
[00:14:25] Koko King: People would post all the time because like you have no idea what will get engagement, what won’t, what will get shared, what won’t.
There’s been so many times. Where I didn’t wanna post a photo, but I would post it in a story and I noticed it got a lot of attention in a story, and I’m like, oh, that’s weird. Maybe I should post it on my wall and then I’ll do a wall post and it blows up. So sometimes I don’t even trust my own judgment.
But you have no idea what will get you a client and what won’t. So like post as much as you can, like, ~um, ~whether it’s a carousel or just like a [00:15:00] single image, you have no idea the opportunities that can come. So like I’m a huge advocate on posting a lot. I think now I do probably three times a week. ~Um, ~and it’s kind of one of those things.
I don’t really plan it if I wake up and I’m in the mood to like. Look at my photos and figure out which one I wanna post, but I kind of just go with the day. Like, I’m not gonna make a post if it’s like a busy day. Sometimes if I’m actually like, mindful of who my clientele base is. So, in Canada, if it’s like a, a national holiday, I can think, okay, everyone will be at home eating dinner.
Maybe they’re gonna be full, they’ll be on their couches at 8:00 PM tonight. You know, I’m gonna make a post while they have like. Full Turkey bellies. I dunno, like trying to understand,~ um,~ people’s behavior on social media. But ~um, ~yeah, it’s kind of just like Wabi-sabi. But I am a firm believer in posting as much as you can because you have no idea the opportunities that those posts [00:16:00] will do for you
[00:16:02] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right, right.
[00:16:02] Koko King: post.
[00:16:03] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: when it comes to the reels, are you putting them together yourself or using something like social templates code to make it easy? How does that, what does that look like?
[00:16:12] Koko King: Uh, so I think left to my own devices. If I have the time, I’d be able to muggy her some good videos, but I just don’t have the time or the, the brain power. So I actually have a, uh, a friend who recently has like quit her job and she’s trying to get more into like the video making, ~um. ~Like, what’s it called?
~Um, ~content creating kind of world. So we actually plan out sessions where she’ll come over, she’ll come to a wedding and we plan out what we want to do videos of. And because like for my subscriber group, even every Tuesday I post a new educational video. So I post to there and then I post to my reels and we kind of plan out what we wanna do, probably like every quarter in advance.
And, but she does it for me because [00:17:00] she, she’s got the jingles, she’s got the font. She knows how to splice and dice things together.
[00:17:05] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So you’re, so you’re outsourcing it to
[00:17:07] Koko King: Yes,
[00:17:08] Outsourcing and Workflow Optimization
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[00:17:08] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: you trust that’s, that’s,~ um,~ now specializing in that and, you know, because as a photographer, yes, you’re getting success on Instagram, but you don’t have to do everything yourself, right?
[00:17:19] Koko King: Yes. Yeah, it’s you. It’s built, she’s built into the budget. Like it’s one of those things initially I think I was kind of stubborn about, but I recognize that if you’re only,~ um,~ it’s like when I started photography and I was doing like trying to do editing and retouching on my photos. I’m like, this is its own separate career.
Like this is someone’s career. Why with half that education or talent, what I would try to replace, like there’s just times in the business where you really have to spend money and let someone else do it because they’re better at it than you are.
Like it’s, it’s their job, it’s their career. They’re proficient and skilled in it, and you’re only like mildly.
So what are you doing
[00:17:56] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Exactly. ~Um,~
[00:17:57] Koko King: budgeted in.
[00:17:58] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: note, [00:18:00] let’s, let’s shift for a second into,~ um,~ one of the things that’s working well in your workflow besides Instagram. ~Um, ~you know, you and I were talking about a couple things that are working well. ~Um, ~we’re gonna skip the second one ’cause we just talked Instagram, which is working extremely well and I love that. ~Um, ~I do wanna bring up, ’cause now we’re talking about money, we’re talking about outsourcing.
[00:18:18] Navigating Taxes and Business Management
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[00:18:22] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: You mentioned taxes, right? Let’s, let’s dig into that a bit because that is a topic that, love it or hate it. We all have to deal with it, right? And yeah. So, so, so talk to me about that. ~Um, ~now you’re talking, you’ve got income coming through, you’ve got, you’re outsourcing to, to, right.
You’re outsourcing to Imagen for editing. You’re outsourcing to your, your friend for the social media, you know, ~um, ~help there. How is this working in the tax world for you?
[00:18:50] Koko King: Right. I mean, I think,~ um,~ like one thing I’m really a firm believer is talking about like taboo things or things that everyone has fears about, and yet [00:19:00] there’s this almost like level of like pretentiousness or I, I don’t know. I don’t know what it is, but I recognized it early when I came into the business, which is like why I share albums.
I talk like tips and tricks. Like I talk about like. All the things that happened behind closed doors that are happening, and no one talks about it. I’m like, I’m, I know I’m not alone here. Like, what is going on people? And so prior to doing photography, I was a tattoo artist and I worked for myself. So I, I knew what it was to be a air quote, a business owner.
~Um, ~but one of the things,~ um,~ recently that I did for myself was incorporating my business. And paying myself a salary. And when it comes to like, contractors, like, ~um, ~my, my video girl, it’s, you know, she’s getting paid out from the business. And like, that was a huge step because it was a, a whole world that I didn’t know about.
And definitely by doing that, I like I, ’cause I was doing my taxes for myself previously, but with incorporating, I was like, this is a whole [00:20:00] new. Scary world and it like, it gives me so much like anxiety and stress and I just wanna take a nap and like have a drink. Like I just, it’s such an intimidating space.
So I was like, okay, well I’ll hire a professional. And the hardest thing was just like switching and QuickBooks. Like I’d never used QuickBooks. I was just like, I was a manual receipt girl. Like I was calculating, like I’m a very like pen to paper.
Like 1970s, like, like like my whittled pencil, like I’m just very tactile.
So even like QuickBooks was a huge thing. But on the, at the end of the year, even though you’re spending more money on the business, whether it’s paying for editing, whether you’re paying someone to do your videos, whether you’re paying a tax person, you save more on your own taxes at the end of the year.
And even just wrapping my head around that took me a while, I’m like. What do you mean? If I’m spending more money on these like service providers and then I’m like carry the two divided by the [00:21:00] one minus the three. But yeah, finally like as I feel like I’m adulting appropriately
[00:21:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right, right.
[00:21:08] Koko King: at 30.
[00:21:11] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: is, is so also have an accountant on, on my end. ~Um, ~I know that she’s like, send me an email if you’ve got a question about something that’s happening and you can’t, you don’t know how to. to log it, whatever. Like, is that the level you’re at with, with your, with your accountant that’s helping with your taxes, where you’re just like, if you’re, if
[00:21:33] Koko King: Yeah,
[00:21:33] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: unknown, you’re just shooting it at that person and being like, what do I do with this?
[00:21:37] Koko King: a thousand percent. And like that service does cost more than just like standard accounting, like almost, I forget what the wording is on it, but it’s. For my peace of mind and knowing that the end of the year. My, you know, my shit. Okay. I can’t swear my stuff is, is where it needs to be. Like, even like when we travel, [00:22:00] like, I’m like, okay, well what’s the tax if I’m like, if this is billed from the states or if we were in, like, Mexico does, does, does this tax a thing?
Like what? Like there’s so many questions every, not every day I’m not that annoying, but you know, at the end of the week I might have a few questions that I have to send off to them because. Uh, if it wasn’t that, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t know if I’m doing things properly. I assume as the years progress, I will have less and less questions and it’ll just be a lot more simplified.
But there is always a huge learning curve when you start anything. And especially like the, like, why don’t they teach you this in school, man? Like, this is wild. Like this is crazy.
[00:22:43] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah,
[00:22:44] Koko King: I hope you teach your daughter these things.
[00:22:48] Reflections on Education and Learning
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[00:22:48] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So, ~um, ~I have a degree in photography technology and I had to take small business 1 0 1. That was the one business class I had to take.
[00:22:56] Koko King: That’s crazy.
[00:22:58] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I literally went to the first [00:23:00] class, went to the last class, and took the final exam and passed with an A.
[00:23:05] Koko King: Oh my God.
[00:23:06] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: that’s how simple that
[00:23:09] Koko King: Oh
[00:23:09] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: class was. The entire.
[00:23:12] Koko King: yeah.
[00:23:13] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: always said if I could go back, I wouldn’t get a degree in photography. I’d get a degree in business.
[00:23:18] Koko King: Yeah.
Right. Yeah. I. I don’t have any post-secondary education. Like I went, I don’t even know if I graduated high school, there’s this like, ongoing joke. ’cause I never received a diploma and I never went to my graduation. But it is like, this is what I hear all the time. Like even when people do,~ um,~ like people ask, oh, how’d you learn photography?
And I’m, for me, the way that I learn, I’m very visual. So using online, ~um. ~Educational tools like YouTube and just even going out and being very hands-on was perfect for me. But it’s, it’s crazy. It’s, it’s crazy that you go to school for things and there’s almost this expectation to be taught, you know, common sense stuff like the, the just [00:24:00] taxes or having your own business and,~ um,~ and it’s not, and it’s absolutely bizarre and kind of disturbing.
I’m like, what do they want you to be successful or like, because they struggled. They’re, they’re upset and now they want you to struggle. Like, it’s crazy to me, like as much as I can help someone, if they have questions like friends or peers, I’m like, ask, because I’ve struggled. I know what it’s like. And instead of spending a month trying to figure something out, I can help you in like four seconds if I can.
It’s crazy.
[00:24:34] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I love that. I love that. ~Um, ~yeah, it, it, it is a shame that, that in a formal education you don’t learn these type of things. ~Um, ~even just the, the, if in college they even said, Hey, you’re gonna start a business when you graduate. If, if you start a business, find an accountant, like they
[00:24:54] Koko King: Right,
[00:24:54] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: that.
[00:24:56] Koko King: like just this very simple, simple suggestion.
[00:24:59] Outsourcing and Hiring Professionals
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[00:24:59] Koko King: Like I have a lot of [00:25:00] friends locally that I help with photography. Like they’ll, they’re just learning and. They’ll say like, Hey, what should I do with my taxes at the end of the year? I’m like, hire an accountant. They’re like, oh, but I can do it for like $20.
I’m like, it is on your own. I’m like, it is not worth the stress, the mental load. I’m like, and you will do it wrong. Like, you are not proficient in this area and unless you are, I really encourage people to outsource and hire professionals, like, yes, be a strong independent woman, but at the same time hire her professional.
~Um, ~when the. Situation allows for it. Like it’s just, it’s crazy.
[00:25:37] Tax Time Tips from an Accountant
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[00:25:37] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: My, my favorite thing that my accountant does around tax time. Is when I’m sitting down with her and she just starts throwing questions at me because home studio, right. And there’s tons of stuff that’s a write off
[00:25:51] Koko King: Yeah. Oh my God.
[00:25:52] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: like things that I wouldn’t be thinking about. Right? So,
[00:25:55] Koko King: Square footage. This
home renos [00:26:00] that.
[00:26:00] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: There’s so many things that that could, know that could be a part of it. So,
[00:26:06] Koko King: Yeah,
[00:26:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I, I’m glad that you’ve got your tax situation. Working well in your
[00:26:12] Koko King: so adults. So adults,
[00:26:15] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: ~um,~ l
[00:26:15] Travel Booking Challenges
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[00:26:15] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: et’s dive into what is not working well and that you’re currently working on To streamline a little bit better.
~Um, ~you mentioned that you travel a lot for
[00:26:27] Koko King: yes.
[00:26:27] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: your work. You’re not
[00:26:29] Koko King: Yes.
[00:26:29] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: shooting weddings in Canada,
[00:26:32] Koko King: No.
[00:26:32] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: even if you are in Canada, Canada’s quite large
[00:26:34] Koko King: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:35] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: US
[00:26:36] Koko King: Right. Yeah.
[00:26:39] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: what is, what is not working well
[00:26:41] Koko King: Oh God.
[00:26:43] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: all of that?
[00:26:44] Koko King: Travel bookings. I am the worst. I,~ um,~ especially when it comes to hotels, because I’m pretty sure everyone knows, obviously. Okay. Say you say we book a wedding right now for June. 2026, it’s on [00:27:00] this weekend. Say it’s in Toronto, it’s four hours away. I always stay in a hotel. So say it’s on the fir, like the second I know in my head, okay, Koko, you’re gonna be driving, staying the first, shooting on the second, leaving the third.
So you have to get a hotel on the, like the first and second, like, I know this, this is common knowledge. And yet, instead of booking it, you know, nine, six months a year in advance. It’ll be like a week out and I’ll be like, ah, crap, I need to book the hotel. And instead of paying, you know, like $250 Canadian a night, whatever it might be, I’m now $600 a night because I’ve waited to the last moment.
~Um, ~but more recently I’ve, I’ve given Robert that responsibility because again, I’m, I’m an independent woman and a business owner, and in my head I’m like, oh, I should be able to do all these things. But there’s. Times when you really need to recognize your shortcomings and if you can, you know, give that [00:28:00] role to someone else,
even if I didn’t, oh, sorry.
[00:28:04] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: no, no, go ahead. Go ahead.
[00:28:05] Koko King: I was saying even if I didn’t have Robert, I would probably like try to pay, like I’d pay a friend or something. Because in my head I’m like to book early, I would save this amount of money. So if I paid even just a friend who’s competent to do this, you know, like, yeah.
[00:28:21] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so my, what I would’ve said is, is three, three different areas you could have gone, right? You obviously went with one, but,~ um,~ and one of them was you have a life partner who’s also a business partner. And maybe he, like, like you said, maybe,~ um,~ he’s stronger in that area than you are, right? You’ve got your strengths, he’s got his strengths, and maybe. He’s gonna do better for that. Right. ~Um, ~that’s fine. An alternative would’ve been, if you didn’t have a, a business partner. Right. An alternative would be, the moment you book, right? The moment that contract signed, [00:29:00] you know, I am shooting this wedding on 1st, whatever it was that you said. You go to Apple reminders on your phone or if you’re an Android, whatever, and you say, remind me on this day to book hotel for this so-and-so’s wedding. Now your phone’s yelling at you six months in advance to book the wedding. Right? And the third, third way similar to what you said about hiring a friend, but my suggestion for those who,~ um,~ who are listening to this and are like, I’m in the same boat. What the hell do I do?
[00:29:32] The Benefits of Using a Travel Agent
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[00:29:33] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Find a travel agent the same
[00:29:33] Koko King: Right.
[00:29:34] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: you might get an accountant, find a travel agent will work, basically work for your business with, you don’t pay a travel agent.
[00:29:43] Koko King: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:44] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: and the,
[00:29:45] Koko King: Yeah,
[00:29:46] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: and whatnot that pay the travel agent,~ um,~ through commissions and stuff. So,~ um, ~a travel agent that you can be like, okay, I have a wedding booked here. Make sure I have something ready to go.
[00:29:55] Koko King: yeah, we, we recently used a travel agent and it was great. ~Um, ~I didn’t actually [00:30:00] like, realize, like in my head, travel agents were like a luxury thing at like a high price point. And basically, you know, she asked like, what do you wanna spend? And then she gives you options within that price point because, uh, yeah, I was, my problem was I was setting the Google Apple reminders and I would just like silence them because like, I’m so, I’m so busy.
And what happens is they come up when I’m doing something and I’m like, oh, whatever. And it gets pushed back. It gets pushed back to people, blah, blah. But the travel agent is a great idea because recently, like I was like, this is incredible. Like the, they just take care of everything. Like we had like private, uh, transfers, like hotel flights, and basically it’s like, this is my budget.
Make it work.
And they do it. It’s incredible.
[00:30:46] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It really, it really is. It really is. My wife and I are, ~um. ~We got married,~ um,~ in 2011 and our 10th wedding anniversary, we wanted to bring our kids back to where we got married in Mexico.
[00:30:59] Koko King: [00:31:00] Ooh.
[00:31:00] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: that long passed, ’cause that anniversary was during the pandemic.
[00:31:04] Koko King: Oh.
[00:31:05] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: and we were not gonna Mexico during the pandemic. So. As we’re,~ um,~ we’re approaching 14 years now, this, this summer. ~Um, ~and now we’re planning for our 15th to go somewhere.
[00:31:16] Koko King: Oh,
in New Mexico.
[00:31:18] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: our plan is contact a travel agent and be like, got two kids. There’ll be this, this age and this age. We wanna go somewhere that’s all inclusive. Find a something. Let them figure it out.
[00:31:31] Koko King: I’m gonna send you my travel agent contact. ’cause she was actually from like, she was our like Mexico travel agent. She was incredible. So I’m gonna, if you don’t have one, I’m sending you a link.
[00:31:40] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Nice.
[00:31:42] Koko King: It’s great because you just don’t have to think. You don’t have to think.
[00:31:44] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. Yep, yep. ~Um, ~and we actually use a travel agent for our wedding too. And
[00:31:49] Koko King: Oh,
[00:31:50] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: all they, all the guests had to do was or email the travel agent we used at the time.
[00:31:55] Koko King: right.
[00:31:56] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: and everybody was just like, show up. [00:32:00] It was nice.
[00:32:00] Koko King: Yeah, it’s interesting ’cause like again, they’re professionals in their space and I, it’s probably like a dying business because of like Expedia and all of these things. And I think there’s like a misconception. I mean, I had the misconception about travel agents and thinking that it was like a. You know, a more expensive option.
But Robert, Robert is very, not frugal, but he loves data and information. So like, even when we were, we worked with the travel agent, he would compare like on Expedia, the price point. And with her it was actually cheaper. So we didn’t have to do any work and it was cheaper. And,~ um,~ we could still, like Robert loves points.
He loves Amex. That’s why like I let him do one of the book. He’s like a, he loves the points. Uh, he.
[00:32:43] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I don’t blame him. I don’t blame him.
[00:32:45] Koko King: Yeah, same. I, I do as well. Now he’s taught me the ways, but,~ um,~ so he’s still able to like, get his points, but it’s like no work. But,~ um,~ yeah, that’s another thing though too, like, especially if you have like a business Amex, like the amount of like perks that you can get, and especially [00:33:00] if you fly a lot, like we’ve flown.
~Um, ~what do you call it? First class, business class, like in pods so many times this year because of his points. And I’m like there and I’m like, Ooh, I’m sipping on my, my mimosa. And I feel fancy. I’m not fancy at all, but because of the points, I’m now feeling fancy.
[00:33:19] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: That’s so funny. I love it. I love it. Uh, I have, I have one more question for you that I was not,~ um,~ anticipating asking, but
[00:33:28] Koko King: Oh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:33:51] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: a photographer that photograph weddings is now moving into a different genre in the photo industry.
[00:33:56] Pricing Yourself in the Photography Business
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[00:33:56] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Something, some sort of advice to, to those who [00:34:00] might be shifting what they’re doing day to day.
[00:34:04] Koko King: ~Um, ~I would, I mean, to be in a position for moving from one thing to another is actually the best position to be in because you have a safety net. You have like the,~ um,~ so whenever someone makes a shift, it’s always. Fear that stops people. ~Um, ~so for example, when I was tattooing, that was a lot of money and to do photography, i, I, it forced me to charge, start charging a premium.
’cause I’m like, why would I take a day away from being in the studio, photography studio to be in a photography studio if it’s not making me the same amount of money? So automatically it allowed me to put my price at, you know, what I was worth, but also what I was making. And so the number one suggestion would be to price yourself accordingly.
Just because you’re starting something doesn’t mean you are lesser than other people, or you’re not worth that amount of [00:35:00] money. ~Um, ~also, uh, like think about it, say you’re, say you’re on a trip and you’re walking down a street and you see a handbag and the handbag’s $20. You might look at it, but you’d be like, oh, it’s a little bit cheap.
But it might not actually even be the quality of the purse. It’s just the price point that you allude for it to being cheap. And then, you know, 20 minutes later you see you’re primed already ’cause you know what you like and you see a purse and you’re like, it’s $200. And you might be like, oh, this is just like that other one, but it’s better.
So I’m gonna buy it. It’s probably the exact same purse, but it’s the price point that alludes to it being,~ um,~ like better quality. So number one, like price yourself. Accordingly and like price yourself kind of high. It sounds crazy and I never really believed it until,~ um,~ I started doing it, but when even when you start something, price yourself higher than almost your peers, I would say not like thousands of dollars, but when comparing portfolios, say someone, say you’re [00:36:00] going from photography into.
Pregnancy photo shoots, family photo shoots, you might think, oh, I have to drop my price point because you know, it’s less time on the day and it’s less time in post-production. All of these stuffs, all these excuses that you’re making to price yourself lower. But when someone’s looking for photographers and they see someone who’s maybe $2,000 for a photo shoot and you’re here at $4,000 a photo shoot, they’ll probably have that conversation with themselves and be like, oh, well this person is like better.
And you know, these are once in a lifetime photos. The experience is gonna be better. So anyways, I’m a huge advocate on pricing yourself higher and.
[00:36:39] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: been, I’ve been battling internally battling ’cause ~um, ~as we,~ um,~ you, you brought up before we started recording was, uh,~ um, ~that I’m doing surprise proposal photography. Right. ~Um, ~and I have that internal debate myself of, it’s not a long session, a ton of work. It is high pressure. have my price, [00:37:00] but I could easily raise the price.
[00:37:01] Koko King: Yeah.
[00:37:02] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: fight it. ’cause I’m like, am I, am I still gonna get bookings if I raise the price? I’ve raised it once so far
[00:37:07] Koko King: And how’d that go?
[00:37:09] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: and I still get bookings.
[00:37:10] Koko King: Exactly.
[00:37:13] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: that’s why, like, I’m, I’m thinking like, I’ve got one coming up on this this Friday, and I’m like, I think after this I’m raising it,~ um,~ going up another $200 and like slowly gonna start
[00:37:24] Koko King: Yeah,
there was,~ um,~ a photographer recently, Jennifer Mower, she’s also from Canada, and she said something not like intelligent, and I was like, that’s, that makes so much sense. And it basically was like, you know, if you’re for weddings, for example, if you’re fully booked this year or booked to a point that you’re happy and you already have.
Maybe almost like half of the bookings booked for 2026 or less than half. It’s a really good indicator that you should increase your price point. If you are not in that position, then you should really,~ um,~ take a moment and like self-assess your work.
[00:37:55] Building a Strong Photography Brand
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[00:37:57] Koko King: So like I do a lot of grid curations, but with that I do a lot of, like, I look at [00:38:00] people’s portfolios and their websites and their Instagrams, and if you aren’t booking, it’s usually not a pricing thing, it’s.
It’s when a bride comes to your page or a planner, they’re looking at you and maybe 10 other people. It’s like, what about your work stands you apart? Even if you’re more expensive? That’s not gonna be what doesn’t get you a booking. It’s gonna be how do you present your work? ~Um, ~how do you present your website?
I personally find there’s a lot of photographers that have weak websites. There’s too much writing and it takes too much effort to navigate to what people wanna find out. They wanna see a portfolio and they wanna figure out how to contact you or see your price point. I always like, like a, starting at like starting at, you know, 7,000 so that they know you can weed out who’s who can access you and who can’t immediately without wasting your time or their time.
But yeah, when it comes to like the booking components, a little bit off, off track, but I would say like if you aren’t booking at that price point, you really have to self-assess and like look at [00:39:00] your work and be like, could I do better grid curations? Can I have a better website? Even like a bio. ~Um, ~like I recently did a grid curation for a client and she has all these like accolades, like the web brides magazine, and she doesn’t even have them pinned at the top.
And I’m like, as a viewer coming onto your page, like it is, uh, like very crucial for you to have those pinned because it immediately will set you apart from your competition. Like you are going to look like a more of a experienced, more like elite. All of these things, all these like psych, uh, psychological components that happen when someone’s looking at, uh, a bride’s looking at your portfolio and your work.
But,~ um,~
so.
[00:39:35] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: And yours, your three pins are, are accolades like that and
[00:39:39] Koko King: Yeah, like I, I’m not like, and like what’s amazing for those, for me is like the Vogue one was for free. ’cause I shot the em Bonnie thing and then an image got leaked and it ended up in Vogue, India. And even though I didn’t get an artist credit and I emailed them, I emailed Vogue. I’m like, listen, it’s still my image.
I’m gonna pin it because it’s good for business. Like, it’s good for people to see when they come to my [00:40:00] page. That I had an image in Vogue and like the wed,~ um,~ like we all know that these, a lot of it is like a pay for play thing, but the wed had reached out to me to, they wanted to showcase that editorial.
And I’m like, great, I’m gonna use this as an excuse to pin that. And then this year, like, Weezy put me in their list of like, world’s best. And like, obviously it’s a very,~ um,~ you know, who’s making these lists? It’s so subjective and it is like, it is so subjective and it’s such a. A weird thing, but I’m like, I’m using this as an excuse to put, like in my bio, I think it says like world’s best like photographer.
I don’t even know. It’s super cocky and arrogant, but I’m like, it’s good for business. Like it says,
[00:40:40] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: top wedding photographer in the world. Yeah,
[00:40:41] Koko King: yeah. I’m like, that’s crazy. But I’m putting it in my bio because at the end of the day for business, when someone’s coming to my page. I want these, these keywords or these accolades there so I can run it parallel next to a price point, to an experience, to deliverables, so that it all like comes together.[00:41:00]
Like it’s crazy. Like when I was putting that in my bio, I’m like literally barking in my mouth. I was like, blah. I’m like, this is crazy. But I’m like, I have to do it. I’m like, I just.
[00:41:11] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It’s part of the, the marketing thing. It’s like, yes, you know that it’s who you know, uh, the list could have been made by anybody, right? But, your clients have no idea. And they’re gonna see it as a social proof, an accolade, and they’re gonna be like that badass. And it
[00:41:30] Koko King: Yeah, and it’s just cra and like, it’s crazy too, ’cause like with like the, the editorials that get shared in like the web or weezy or like web vibes, like these are things that I actually do like on my own time. Like I curate editorials at home and I. I work with like locals and we all collab together.
It’s just like everyone’s putting in time and besides buying food for the team, like it’s no money spent on my end, but I have a vision and I curate these, these shoots and I know that these magazines are gonna like them and they’ll [00:42:00] reach out to me and they’re like, Hey, we wanna, can you send us the link to this?
We wanna put it on our, because it’s beneficial to them. It’s beneficial to me, but like especially coming into this space, I wasn’t getting those types of bookings ’cause I was new. I wasn’t at a higher price point. So I started creating this like. Creating the type of client that I wanted to attract. And a lot of these editorials and a lot of these things that have allowed our, our name to climb in the industry has been through making our my own editorials at home and like working with locals.
~Um, ~so that was, that was definitely intentional. But the whole Instagram game, it’s just, it’s just one, I don’t know how you describe it, like it’s just. It’s just how you present yourself and people romanticize like when they, like you thought I was from the uk, you know, like you’re romanticizing my brand.
And I’m like, no. Like I’m a hobo. I live in like, like a country, bum town in Canada. Like, but like it’s all of this like illusion and it’s not an illusion in terms of deliverables and the customer service and the [00:43:00] experience we provide for our client. But the branding is certainly this like elevated experience.
~Um.~
You know, you, that’s business baby.
[00:43:10] Connecting with Koko and Final Thoughts
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[00:43:10] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, speaking of brand,~ um,~ as we wrap this up, Koko, I’d love to,~ um,~ for you to share, and it’ll be in the show notes, but if you can please share,~ um,~ where listeners can learn more about you, connect with you, and, uh, of course, see your incredible photography.
[00:43:24] Koko King: I mean, Instagram
[00:43:27] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I, duh.
[00:43:28] Koko King: for sure.~ Um. ~Instagram, I think like the biggest level of connection is like for my Instagram subscribers. ~Um, ~we have a, I post educational videos every Tuesday and we have like a really active chat, it’s called Behind the Lens. And like every day we’re just talking and people ask me whatever they want. I give them like the nitty gritty, like behind the scenes actions, like all the, the kind of raw, honest stuff.
And ~um, ~yeah, that’s probably the, the best way. I mean. I [00:44:00] feel like a safe space in the sense that I just wanna help people find more creativity and I want people to feel more comfortable about the insecurities they might have coming into this space. ~Um, ~there’s like so many things that people don’t talk about.
There’s so much,~ um,~ what’s it called? Like when you, uh, imposter syndrome? Like even especially us, like when we had to increase our, not had to, when we started to increase our price point, I felt. Really afraid because there’s a lot of people in this industry that I respect who’ve like paid their dues, you know, 10, 15 years.
And I’m like, I can’t charge the same amount as them. Like they’ve been doing it longer. And then finally enough people were like, your stuff is if not good, it’s better. Like you have to increase your price, you have to increase your price. And I’m like,
but just. Talking to people about the same fears and insecurities that I’ve had, that we’ve had, and it’s just a safe space
[00:44:54] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yep.
[00:44:54] Koko King: judgment free.
[00:44:56] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yep. thank you so much for, for hopping on, for [00:45:00] chatting with me, for sharing all this information and all your, all this knowledge with all the listeners. I know that everybody’s gonna really, uh, you know, walk away and feel inspired and, uh.
[00:45:12] Koko King: Thank you. Thanks for having, it’s my first like official like podcast. Podcast, so.
[00:45:20] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So fun. I’m honored that, that I was the first, so
[00:45:26] Koko King: good luck with the, good luck with the thing. The renewal of the the wedding. 15 years. That’s crazy. I’m gonna ask you a question before we go. What’s the secret? 15 years?
[00:45:38] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. Well, she’s the boss, so
[00:45:42] Koko King: I feel like, I feel like Robert would say the same thing.
[00:46:00]
