Photographing Difficult Times with Jacqueline Dersjant

[00:00:00] Jacqueline Dersjant: I could do it. I wanted to do it, and when, when I drove home afterwards, I felt. So strangely happy and, and, warm. and I think it's then that I saw that I didn't capture this. Grief [00:00:17] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Workflows is a podcast about saving you time and money in your photography business as a photographer and content Creator who struggles with dyslexia, colorblind. [00:00:26] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Introversion and anxiety stemming from years of being bullied as a child. Workflows have been my rock. I have workflows for every aspect of my life, and that's why I am so happy to bring you workflows, a podcast Presented by Imagen As a company dedicated to saving you time and money in your photography business, it makes sense to enhance and expand the conversation to all things. [00:00:52] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Tune in and subscribe to hear stories, strategies, and tools that could be your rock. Hear from people just like you. Put the camera down for little, Connect the headphones and get to work with workflows. Get in on the conversation by joining the Imagen Community today. Imagen the possibilities. [00:01:15] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Jacqueline Deshant is a photographer from Amsterdam, known for her candid documentary. Her expressive photography is about capturing special moments, interactions, and emotions between people. Since her mom died in 2015, she has been passionate about end of life and farewell photography. No one forgets to have pictures taken at their wedding. [00:01:37] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Her mission is that people won't forget photography in hard times. She is committed to capturing reality and has an eye for spontaneous once in a lifetime. Moments that feel honest. Her Imageners are intimate and sometimes funny, always telling a true story. All photos are made in relaxed, sympathetic, and unobtrusive ways. [00:02:04] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Jacqueline has received several awards such as Fearless, WPJA, PANL, and Px3, and has been honored to participate in the jury of several prestigious photography. She's also the owner of the Full Monty Workshop, an intensive yearlong training for photographers who want to take a more documentary and storytelling approach. [00:02:26] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Without further ado, here's my conversation with Jacqueline. Hello, Jacqueline . Hi, [00:02:34] Jacqueline Dersjant: Scott. [00:02:35] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Hi. Hi. How are you [00:02:36] Jacqueline Dersjant: doing today? I'm good, thank you. How are you? [00:02:40] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Good, good. I'm very excited about this conversation. So this is a very different episode than, what we normally do for the show. And, I'm very excited that you're the first person to have a, one of these special episodes that I don't even have a name for yet, but it will have a name before it goes live. so, I'm gonna get right into it. My first question to you is, what inspired you to pursue. End of life photography. [00:03:08] Jacqueline Dersjant: Yeah, that's, that was really personal. she, my mom, sorry. My mom, died, in 2016. And, she got ill in 2015. and it started with a, a seizure and she had a lot of friends, who kept on calling me how to ask how she was doing. [00:03:27] Jacqueline Dersjant: And,I, I didn't have time for that. I had a family. I had my work, I had my, my mom and dad. I had to go to the hospital with them, and so I started making a block. you know, and every, everything that I thought was interesting for, for everybody to know. I just put in a block. I made some pictures. [00:03:48] Jacqueline Dersjant: And, so that saved me a lot of time. And, In the week after her funeral, or yeah, in the week after her funeral, a friend of mine, a wedding photographer, he asked if I could document the burial of his father. And before that, I, I did think about, documenting funerals, but it felt really weird. [00:04:11] Jacqueline Dersjant: You know, I didn't understand why I would want to capture the grief of. Or something like that. And, so I never followed up on that. and then, he asked it and sure I wanted to do it. And then I, after the funeral, when I drove home, you know, and it was the same week, the week after the, cremation of my mom. [00:04:36] Jacqueline Dersjant: I drove home and I. Very strangely, like at peace and warm and happy. And, and I realized that I didn't capture the grief, but, the more the, good moments and the love and, remembering all the beautiful stories about dwan, about his dad. And so that was the first moment. that I've, realized what it could mean. [00:05:07] Jacqueline Dersjant: And then about six months later, I saw the, the blog post, the, the blog again that I made for the friends of my mom. And, that was really weird because I realized that I, I completely forgot all the good moments that we had. You know, it's,It was really special to realize that all the memories were gone and I got them back be because I, I was watching, the pictures and, and reading the stories I made. [00:05:38] Jacqueline Dersjant: So that was, really special. And for me that was a realization of how important it can be to capture, hard times. [00:05:50] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. And, and I'm sure that going from being a wedding photographer to now this giant switch, which is like the complete opposite end of this, of the emotion spectrum for, for your clients, you know, I'm sure that, that that, you know, hits, hits you pretty hard. and we're gonna, we're gonna dive into, how you handle this kind of thing. and, and, and all that comes with it. so my next question then, , what do you hope that your clients take away from your Imageners that you're providing to them? Well, it's the same as, as my own, experience. As, as I hope they, they remembered the good moments they had. that's one thing I know that some. Feel, get strength, feel strengthened by looking at these pictures. and when it's for a funeral, it might be, a second chance to, to relive the day of the funeral. And it sounds really weird. Why would you remem want to remember the day of the funeral? But, that's also can be very comfort. [00:06:53] Jacqueline Dersjant: You know, it's, for here in the Netherlands, it's usually about a week after, after somebody dies that, that there's a funeral and there's a lot of things to, to arrange and people are really tired after this week and you know, you don't remember all the people that were there, and you can. all the things that are happening. [00:07:14] Jacqueline Dersjant: You know, it's just like, it's just you and there's, but there's so many people and it can be really, helpful to, to look at pictures and, feel the love again. and the, the support you get, the, it's all celebrating of the life somebody had that's, Can, can really help. Well, it, it's, it helps coping with the love, the loss of a loved one. [00:07:37] Jacqueline Dersjant: You know, it's, it's,and also I think one of the things that can, really help is if you have like a small album. Small or a big one, but, uh mm-hmm. . so if somebody has a small album, you can take it with you and, it's, it makes it so much easier to talk about, a funeral or, somebody that, that passed away. [00:07:58] Jacqueline Dersjant: But it makes it, it makes it so much easier to, talk about somebody who died and about a funeral. [00:08:04] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So when it. Think about wedding photography. quite often you are, as a photographer, you're, you're getting some photos from the distance and then you're sometimes getting in there while everybody's dancing and you're up close. and you try to be a part of the event, but also not distract from the bride and grooms big day and things like that. So much is involved, but when it comes. funeral photography, end of life photography. these, which are, like I said earlier, like the complete opposite end of the emotion spectrum. how do you capture such honest moments, in a way where you are comfortable and the people are comfortable, and you're still getting fantastic photos that tell that story. [00:08:46] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: How do you do that in such an [00:08:48] Jacqueline Dersjant: honest way? Well, I'm not really sure. It's, it's completely the opposite. Spectrum of, of emotions, because on a wedding there's very often sad moments because people are missing mm-hmm. . And, like I said, it's, there's a lot of thinking of good memories and laughter at a, at a funeral, but, for me it's very important to connect with people before if possible, you know, to, If possible, get to know a little bit more about the family and the, and the one that's, passed away. [00:09:21] Jacqueline Dersjant: So it makes it easier to capture, pictures that I have more meaning. and it sometimes can be hard, you know, sometimes I, I get booked by, the family directly and sometimes by a funeral director. . Mm-hmm. . And those are, sometimes can be very protective, and I do understand why. but it's not, I don't, I don't agree with them. they, they think sometimes it's, it's, too much for the family to also talk with,with a photographer about, the photo. and, that that can be true, but I, I think, the family should decide it themselves. And my experience is that most of the time they, they really like, love talking about, this, the one who passed away, you know, so, and the story and what they mean to, to them and what they're going to do at a funeral. [00:10:15] Jacqueline Dersjant: So, . Yeah. So that's, that can be a problem if, if the director protects the, the family, but, yeah, so for me it's getting to know them. That's, that's the, the main thing. [00:10:30] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. And when you're, when you're photographing, these, these type of, you know, funerals, for example, or if you're in somebody's house, photographing an end of life, situ. what's your equipment like? Like what do you, what are you using? Like, I know this is like the, the more nerdy part of photography, but it's so interesting, for somebody who's never considered doing this type of thing. It's so interesting to think like, what, how would you handle it? What is the equipment gonna be different? so can you talk a little bit about what you bring with you, what you're using on a regular. [00:11:06] Jacqueline Dersjant: Yeah, sure. I don't use flash. that's one thing. And I have a, a camera, a mirrorless camera, that is completely silence. So for me, that's,the reason that I, I changed cameras when I, when I started doing this, photography. and then I use,24 70 and 135. low light lenses, if that's the word for it. mm-hmm. . So I want to be able to, to make, good quality pictures in low light situations. and I think, I don't really work in a different way than I would at a wedding. So I have a journalistic approach, I think to, to moments and interac. that I capture, [00:11:49] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I mentioned, or I was, I was, alluding to this earlier, the fact that I wanted to dive a little bit into the impact it might play on you. So I wonder how do you handle the emotional impact that these type of things can, could put on you? things that you're witnessing at, at a, you know, in these events regularly. I know that you, you, you, keep saying it's not too similar to weddings or it's, it's similar to weddings in, in many aspects. To me, it doesn't feel that way. to me, I don't, I know I don't think I could handle it, but, So I'm wondering how you handle it, ? yeah, no, sure. It is different. it is different, but my approach is not different. and, because it's the, the strange thing is that I, I don't handle. funerals very well. You know, if, if I, if I attend a funeral that I'm usually crying a lot. And,so it's, it's not that I, I can switch off my emotions. So also at a funeral I do cry. usually when, when everybody's crying and so nobody will notice cuz you know, there's something happening. [00:12:57] Jacqueline Dersjant: Nobody's paying attention to me. but part of. You know, you're, you're you, I want to make, good quality pictures. So I'm looking at the framing and my aperture and the, shut the speed and, I think that's, you know, the camera is between me and the emotion, so that, that helps. Yeah. And, and I think it's also helped that I, that I know the value, of what I'm doing. [00:13:22] Jacqueline Dersjant: So, Yeah, this may might also be a filter. You know, it's, it's, yeah, it is different. Yeah. But, but, [00:13:29] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, I, I could definitely see the camera and the lens, you know, being in front of your face for a lot of those, you know, jobs and the fact that it is a job, being a good blocker to. As if you were there as a, as a guest, if you were there as somebody grieving, yeah, that would be much, much more difficult. [00:13:53] Jacqueline Dersjant: Yeah. Well, I think I, you know, if, if I, if it wouldn't touch me emotionally mm-hmm. , anymore, then, then I would quit. Just stop doing [00:14:00] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: it. Oh, definitely. I mean, yeah, that goes with anything like if you're not, if you're not, if you're not feeling it, like something, some sort of emotion from it, then that's [00:14:10] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, for sure. Definit. because end of life photography is often during these dark days and funerals during dark days for families. can you describe your editing style? And Imagen does editing, so we've gotta, we've gotta talk about editing a little bit. Yeah, sure. can you, can you describe your editing style and like your methodology for it? for, for these jobs, for these sessions? because, I think the first gut reaction that people would have is, Oh, it's a funeral. These are gonna be black and white, and they're gonna be nice deep blacks and vibrant, bright whites. Super high contrast, or, or this darkened moody color style. So talk about what you do, for your edit. [00:14:56] Jacqueline Dersjant: Well, I don't do black and white for my never. but, no, I, I like color and, you know, my picture will be, be clean, natural, colorful, maybe under warm sight. if, if there's like a, it's not a filter, but you know, I like the warm. Feeling, for the, yeah, for the funeral photo, the end of life photography. yeah, so that's, that's, that's my editing style, . [00:15:24] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Awesome. and at the end of the show, we'll ask you to share, your website and we'll definitely link it in the show notes. Everybody will be able to go and look at, you know, the way that you photograph you these, these events and, and, and the way that you edit them. [00:15:38] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: With Imagen . So, earlier you, you mentioned, one of the challenges that you face, which is sometimes, the fact that, it's the families that are hiring you and not like the funeral directors, and planners that are, that are hiring you. and that could be challenging. So can you go into some of the challenge. either digging in deeper into that or a different challenge, whatever you want, faced with end of life funerals. and, and these, [00:16:07] Jacqueline Dersjant: I think one of the things that I'm, that is a challenge for me is that there's still a taboo on, end of life photography. people that know about it, find it hard to suggest it to others. [00:16:19] Jacqueline Dersjant: And I think it's because they are afraid that somebody thinks. It's a strange question where I think it might also be the case that people in after, because I hear a lot, people, feeling, sad that they didn't know about this photography. And if they had known they would have pictures now and. , the whole idea of not asking them, because it might be a weird question. [00:16:48] Jacqueline Dersjant: It has two sides, you know, So that's, that's one of the challenges that I'm facing. you know, like practical, you can't use flash. That's a challenge. Sometimes it's,people on a funeral, you know, the family is the one that's highest me. But there's a lot of other people with a lot of grief and crying, and they didn't ask for me. [00:17:11] Jacqueline Dersjant: You know? So that's also,a challenge sometimes. And I think that's usually when, when the funeral director tells the guests, like there's a photographer, and. because family asks for it and, to document for their own use, and it's usually no problem. [00:17:30] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: and then, yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna say, how, how often do you, when like a funeral planner, a funeral director, announce that to, to, to everybody that you know, the family hired a photographer, How often do you. [00:17:43] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Somebody say, No, I don't wanna be photographed and leave, or, or [00:17:48] Jacqueline Dersjant: hardly ever. That's good. Sometimes you, Yeah, sometimes when they pay less respect, so they, they walk. I, and I don't know if that's like a cultural thing, but you know, you walk past a coffin and then you can, pay your respect. Sometimes I see somebody holding up the hand, you know, like, No, but that's okay. [00:18:10] Jacqueline Dersjant: You know, don't make it a picture. But no, that's it. [00:18:16] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, I think it's important that if anybody's going to get into this, from my point of view, to respect somebody's privacy, where if they are a guest there, they are grieving and they put up their hand or whatever, don't like force the photo, just respect it. [00:18:31] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Wait for the next [00:18:32] Jacqueline Dersjant: person. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's also, I'm, I'm not there to capture all the guests. Right. You know, that's, that's not what I'm doing. Right. I'm, I'm, I'm, finding the interactions and the story of the, of the day itself. So, yeah. Sure. If, if somebody doesn't want to be in the pictures that I want to, then, then I'll stop photographing them. [00:18:53] Jacqueline Dersjant: Yeah. yeah. So what would you say. If you had one minute to recommend to a photographer to get into this niche? [00:19:03] Jacqueline Dersjant: Well, I'd start with saying just don't do it for the money. I think you have to really have your heart in it. Mm-hmm. . and start with, getting familiar on what happens, on a funeral. you know, I think at. with getting in touch with the funeral directors and see if you can document their day. so, you will have some pictures, of course. you would have to be able to use some of them, to get some kind of portfolio. It can be maybe, a hidden portfolio, but that you can show, to other funeral directors or maybe at families if, if they ask for it. [00:19:43] Jacqueline Dersjant: Mm-hmm. , But also to, to get familiar about all the, the moments that they're in a, in the day of the funeral. like for here in the Netherlands, sometimes she can go to,the, like the oven. so how does it work and, and where would you stand if you would make pictures? And, but also, so that's, that's really at the end, right? [00:20:06] Jacqueline Dersjant: So in the start, there's the, there's the, the car and the coffin going, going in and out, and how can you make pictures of that? So it has. Very often it has, the same repetitive moments as, like a wedding would have, a first view and the ring, you know, there's, there's moments that you, that happen. [00:20:29] Jacqueline Dersjant: There's expected moments. [00:20:29] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: There's expected moments, and then there's the unexpected that [00:20:32] Jacqueline Dersjant: you have to be ready for. And yeah, and, and the good thing is for a, I never have somebody saying to me like, Why I, I miss a picture where I'm. I don't know, closing the, the, the casket or something. You know, that that's, we, you don't have that kind of expected moments, to, to photograph. but yeah, I think it's, it's good to, to get familiar with those moments and where you can, stand to capture, like, to capture the story. so for one thing, if, if, if, A coughin goes in or out of the car. I usually open a side door so I can make a picture from within the car outside where I can see the faces of the, of the ones carrying it. and. You know, it takes a while to get to know about those moments and, and where to stand. yeah, so get familiar. And also, I think I'd start with, a funeral director. Yeah. [00:21:33] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: That's great. Yeah. I, I might even recommend, tell me if, if this is, not good where, for, where, you know, the Netherlands, but But, if I was getting into it, I might actually contact someone like you who's already doing it and be perfectly honest saying, I'm getting into this niche. I'm just starting out. Have you built up my portfolio yet? I'm looking to, to start doing it. If you happen to get an inquiry and you're already booked, could you refer somebody to me for, to get started? [00:22:02] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Like, I'm not trying to compete with you. , you know? Yeah. If you don't have anything available, you know, that kind of thing. Well, you, you could try that, but that will be really hard, I think, because, for me it wouldn't work because I, I would want to know that you would be, able to document a day like that because you can be such a good wedding photographer, but doesn't necessarily mean that you can be a good, farewell photographer and a life photographer. [00:22:28] Jacqueline Dersjant: Right. because you really need to feel that you can be somewhere. You know, you have to feel that you are allowed to be in the moment of, of grief and, it's very intimate. Yeah. So, so if, if somebody would come to me like, Hey, I just thought this is a great idea. Just let me do some. If you can't. ? No, that wouldn't work for me. [00:22:52] Jacqueline Dersjant: Don't work. No, No. All right, . So [00:22:56] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: speaking of intimate though, you describe your images or have described your images, as intimate and sometimes fun and funny. can you talk more about the fun and funny part of that statement? yes, I can and, yeah, it, it's, I think it's, , it's a review of something, on, fearless photographers. [00:23:18] Jacqueline Dersjant: Mm-hmm. , but it's not from the time of my, farewell or end of life photography. Right. It's still in,a wedding. so like one example I have, is,it's a wedding of I think it's the fourth wedding of the, of the bride. And, I don't know about groom, but anyway, long story. But we are walking, on a place where there's a windmill and,the, the. [00:23:42] Jacqueline Dersjant: Bride said, You know, I can, I can just climb in the, blades of the, of the windmill, if you want me to. I said, Well, if you want to, I will, I will make a picture if you, if you climb into it. And then, but she had this very short skirt. maybe because her first, for the wedding, I don't know, , it was a very short. [00:24:04] Jacqueline Dersjant: Skirts. And, so she cl she climbed into the blades of this windmill and then her sister who was walking with her, told me it's like, Hey photographer, just move away a little bit because you're, photographing under her skirts like her underwear. And, and the bride said, No, this is, it's okay. And, and for me, I, I didn't want to capture her underwear. [00:24:28] Jacqueline Dersjant: I wanted to crop it like from the top. Mm-hmm. . and then the sister, decided to, to make sure that I couldn't photograph her, underwear. So she, she like, it's almost. Put in her fist in, in the, like under the skirts , so Oh, yeah. Yeah. And but for me, so that's, I thought it was a very funny moment, but it's also telling the story about the, I think, I'm not really sure if she was about 50 or something, but it was still like the big sister looking out for her younger sister. you know, for this bad photographer and also the husband, he was smiling. Like everything was so funny. yeah, so, so I like, I like if there's more in, in a, in a picture than, just what's happened. It's, yeah, this distills really about this sister and it's a funny, funny moment. But also, you know, on a funeral, there's, there's also a lot of, well, Per se, funny things happening, but there's a lot of laughter and Yeah. interesting moments. And so for, in, for instance,there's this coffin where a lot of kids are drawing on the sides, and then there's not much space left on the, on the coffin itself. And then one of the kids is going, lies down on the floor to, start drawing on. On the bottom of the coffin. [00:25:54] Jacqueline Dersjant: Can you imagine what I'm, So he's like under the coffin and, that's also, that's not maybe funny, but it's sort of because he has, naked feet and it's, I don't know. I like, I like the. story and the, it def that definitely adds some fun to a, To a funeral. To a funeral, [00:26:18] Jacqueline Dersjant: right. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [00:26:20] Jacqueline Dersjant: Yeah. And it's, I think it's also so interesting to see that kids, you know, they have, they haven't learned that you. might not do that kind of thing. . Yeah. I don't see a a, an adult lying under a coffin to draw something. Right. [00:26:37] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Although that would be funnier. That would be funnier. . [00:26:40] Jacqueline Dersjant: That would be funnier, yes. [00:26:41] Jacqueline Dersjant: Yeah. I, I, so I share with you previously, that when my grandmother died in June, her request for her funeral. Was to not have anybody dressed in suits. Nothing too formal. She wanted to be fun. Literally music at the, at the grave side and, you know, Hawaiian shirts and flowers and, nothing, nothing dark and dreary, no sadness. [00:27:08] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Just fun, to celebrate. How fun her, you know, she, how much she enjoyed her life. So, I, when it came time for, everybody to do their speeches or say what they wanted to say, I, I prepared something. I pulled up my phone, started crying my eyes out before I could even start. And, I had a couple funny things throughout, throughout this, the speech and,it was very, you. [00:27:34] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It, it, it felt really good to, to like get it out and I, you know, eventually stopped crying, but, there was a lot of laughter, throughout while I was talking. and so there's definitely some, some fun moments that happened there. But, you just actually reminded me of something else that happened at the same funeral for my grandmother, because the kids, my kid, my, my kids and my niece, and. [00:27:57] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Painted rocks purple, which is her favorite color. And, in, for a Jewish funerals, a lot of times you, throw, scoop with a shovel. Each person who's there at the, at the graveside will scoop the dirt back in. Yeah. you know, one by one you take turns and you then you put the rocks on top when everything's done. [00:28:19] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: And we. the kids took the rocks painted purple and threw, threw them on the casket before the dirt was in there. so she was buried with, rocks painted purple by her great friend cuz, which was really, really [00:28:32] Jacqueline Dersjant: beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That reminds me of another story is, that there was a funeral and next to the. [00:28:44] Jacqueline Dersjant: the, the coffin was already lowered and next to it was a, like a huge pile of sand. But because it's can be so confronting, this funeral location, had a green, like fake grass. Oh, yeah, yeah. on top of it. So it, so it wouldn't really show as a lot of, heap of sand and, but kids found out that if they jumped on. then the scent would just like spill out on the, on the bottom and, and then they would, grab it and throw it in the, in the, on top of the casket. Yeah. kids can have fun and Yeah, it's, it's very interesting. They can have this moment of sadness and, and, and continue playing. That's amazing. [00:29:31] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Do you wanna share another like, memorable moment that you've captured over the years doing. [00:29:38] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Mm. [00:29:39] Jacqueline Dersjant: Yeah, I have maybe two of them. Sure. well, memorable. I'm not sure if you like, I have a funny,thing that I'm thinking of now and, but also, a very intimate moment that I, that I,think of and, Okay. Maybe start with a, with a, the first one, the, end of life memory that I have. Sure. that was,I was asked to document the end of life of, a woman. She had a brain. and they first thought that she was going to live another four months, and in the end it was two weeks maybe. and so they had this, I'm not sure how to call it, but like a subscription kind of thing. So they would call me whenever something would happen to see if I. [00:30:25] Jacqueline Dersjant: Capture those moments. Okay. And, so they called me, the evening that they decided on the dates of the euthanasia, because the, her husband would be there, and her two daughters, and two good friends. to talk about, the, the funeral. So, how the funeral would take place. So she had a really, a big say in it, that was really, very intimate. [00:30:51] Jacqueline Dersjant: Mm-hmm. and very beautiful to, to. To document. So, you know, talking about what kind of clothes she was like, so they were, showing the dresses, like, do you want to wear this or do you want to wear that? When, when you're in this,open casket, what kind of music? she wanted to play the text that would be on the, the cart that would be sent to the friends and family to invite for the funeral. [00:31:13] Jacqueline Dersjant: That's not like this funny story. Right. But it's, it was very memorable for me. to also very, you know, felt very honored to be, to be in a evening like that was very intimate and very special. Yeah. And, later on they,the husband told me that he, he got very much strength about those kind of pictures because she was very strong at that moment. [00:31:39] Jacqueline Dersjant: And,it helped him, after she died and. Oh yeah. And another thing that comes to mind is, the funeral of a 22 year old girl. She had a brain tumor, and she decided she wanted to have a, a costume party for her. it was the day before she was cremated, with a lot of friends and family. [00:32:04] Jacqueline Dersjant: and, so there was Snow White and a bear, and a fireman and Pirates of the Caribbean. Everybody was there. so that was very, special. And all her friends, they were very young, but they had so many nice, or very good speeches that. . Amazing. so it was a very special, funeral to document. Mm-hmm. [00:32:30] Jacqueline Dersjant: But, I knew they, the, so I was booked until four or something, and I knew that they had to leave the, location at four 30. and it was already four 15. And then I think one of my carts, was full. And, and my back was on the other side of, the, the room. And so I decided to just make from two cameras, one camera. [00:32:54] Jacqueline Dersjant: So I switched carts and switch lenses and, I don't know. And then, the father, of the girl who died, proposed to her mom on stage, because they said they wanted to get married. with all the kids, kids still still there. And so it was, you know, not a really official wedding, but mm-hmm. , sort of, it was, and. [00:33:23] Jacqueline Dersjant: So the son and the daughter, and then the open cost, cost kits, the, their, so their daughter was there as well. And I was so happy that I still had, enough battery and, and, space on my cart left. And then the dad in the end said like, I, I thought it was so funny. I didn't, I didn't want to tell you before. I wanted to see the surprise on your face, for this, for this moment. So, yeah. That was really strange. Yeah. [00:33:54] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: A wedding at a funeral. . [00:33:56] Jacqueline Dersjant: A wedding at a funeral. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. , that's really hard to top that one. I think it is. [00:34:04] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. It's very hard to top that. I, I can't see that it happening ever again. [00:34:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: But then again, you never know. That could happen. You never know again for you. Yeah. You've got your, your photograph in these very, very, difficult situations. and there's a lot that is involved in it. And you are using Imagen to help. your post production. I'm wondering if you can share, how has Imagen played a role in your post production workflow for these jobs? [00:34:29] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Well, [00:34:30] Jacqueline Dersjant: it's,I have a much quicker workflow, and especially for, funerals. I feel it's so important to, deliver the pictures as soon as possible. I do believe that it's, Much easier to look at, at those pictures when you're still in this bubble of, of grief and funeral, than, than, if you would wa wait for a month or so. [00:34:53] Jacqueline Dersjant: So what I, what I do is,I capture the funeral one day, and then the next day I will, grow the Imageners. send them to Imagen and then, send, a collection of like 12 pictures or so to a lab nearby, and then have the, the album ready. So it's day after the funeral. So usually they will have a, a mini, it's like a preview album, you know, a mini album. [00:35:24] Jacqueline Dersjant: until they have like a big one, within two or three days. And then, I already have the, the, the gallery ready. but I will wait a couple of days, you know, First they need to see the album before I send the gallery. yeah. But it's, it, it, that's, that wouldn't have been possible before. Yeah, [00:35:44] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. [00:35:45] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Definitely. . so outside of, of your, photography itself. How has Imagen impacted your [00:35:52] Jacqueline Dersjant: life? Well, as I'm a freelance photographer, everything that's, influences my work, influences my life. so, it saves me a lot of time, in my work. So I get a lot of more time, in my life, and, the, the risk is a little bit. [00:36:11] Jacqueline Dersjant: that I use that to work more, but, . Yeah. . So that's, that's something that I still have to work on. . Yeah. But [00:36:20] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, it's, it gave the time back to, to take on more work. . [00:36:24] Jacqueline Dersjant: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:36:26] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. so where can listeners learn more about you, connect with, you, see your incredible photography [00:36:31] Jacqueline Dersjant: on my website and on my Instagram? [00:36:34] Jacqueline Dersjant: You want me to, So it's a shackling dash sh on Instagram, and it's, I know it's going to sound really bad for non Dutch people. It's offsite offsite SHACKLING dash.com, which is my,end of life and, and funeral website. [00:36:51] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. And can you also share a bit about your mentorship program that you have? [00:36:56] Jacqueline Dersjant: Yeah, sure. I can. It's, I'm, I'm mentoring, Photographers one on one, but also through the Philmont workshop, which is a program that I'm, that is in, is with groups. And it has a couple of, weeks, another couple of days, and then another week that we all get together and get assignments and,I think it's one of the, Nicest things in what I do. to, to mentor. Yeah. Maybe not the nicest, but I, it's, it's, it gives me so much energy. Yeah. [00:37:29] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Yeah. It, it, yeah. I, I totally, totally get that. Whenever I'm mentoring a photographer, it, it, It, it boosts you, it boosts your, what you do. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. I, I'm a, I, I study, or practice and train in karate, in, an art called Goju Ryu. [00:37:46] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: And I'm now at the level where my instructor's asking me to help teach whenever there's not enough, higher ranks to mm-hmm. to teach. And he always says, that he loves to teach because it makes him a better student. [00:38:00] Jacqueline Dersjant: Well, that's true. Yeah. Teaching really teaches you, a lot about yourself. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. [00:38:06] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. so my last question to you before we wrap this up, what do you love doing? When not worrying about your photography business. Thanks to Imagen. I know you're always worrying about your photography business, cause, but I do. Yeah. When those little moments, when you're not thinking about it, what do you love to do? [00:38:26] Jacqueline Dersjant: Well, if I can, stop myself, working, more with free time, I, I do love to go to the spa. I love reading, dystopian books. and also pulp novels, that I, you know, I like sometimes when this, when I can switch off my brain to read books that I don't have to think about where I left it or where, you know, it's just stupid stories. [00:38:55] Jacqueline Dersjant: And I, I have some lessons of the ukulele, ukulele lessons and singing lessons. and, singing for me, I love to do it. I've loved it all my life, but I, I only do it when it's nobody at home. so I wanted to, be good enough to, not be ashamed of singing out loud sometimes when there is somebody in the neighborhood. [00:39:16] Jacqueline Dersjant: So, yeah, I love doing that. Definitely. [00:39:19] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: That's so awesome. That's awesome. One day when you feel confident and comfortable. , you'll have to, you'll have, I'll come and sing here An Imagen call and, and you can perform for everybody. [00:39:30] Jacqueline Dersjant: Yes. . Someday. Yes, someday. [00:39:35] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: That'd be fun. thank you so much for, for this awesome conversation for, for, for inspiring everybody, for sharing your knowledge with everybody about this very, different, genre of photography that is not talked about nearly. so I'm, I'm glad that we're able to, to talk about it today. [00:39:53] Jacqueline Dersjant: Yeah, I, So thank you. Thank you so much. I'm, I'm honored to be here. And yes, it's, it, there isn't, talk about it's enough. so I really hope, This kind of photography will will be more known. Yeah. [00:40:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Thank you so much, Jacqueline, for that amazing conversation. [00:40:12] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I really think that you will inspire anybody who has been considering getting into this type of photography. It is something not talked about nearly enough in the. So I wanna thank you again for sharing your knowledge and diving deeper into this topic. You have been listening to workflows Presented by Imagen. [00:40:31] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: To hear more from workflows and to find a link to our guest, please go to imagen-ai.com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining the imagen-ai.com/community and be sure to subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. [00:40:54] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Thank you for tuning in. Until next time.