From Set to Studio How to Rock Your Brand Photography Business with Erica + Jon Hayes

60 === ​[00:00:00] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Do you guys, travel a lot for, for your brand photography or is it all mostly local? Jon Hayes: we have previously we traveled a whole lot. . I'll be honest with you, ever since we moved to the beach, I'm like, I don't want to go anywhere. and we have, we have team in Phoenix, still that handles clients there for us. . So that's, that's allowed us to slow down on travel climate Erica Hayes: up until we moved to Florida in 23, we traveled all the time. All the time. Yeah. So, yeah. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Cool. Well, I think, I think today's discussion's going to, be extremely educational, for all the listeners and also, I. I have a feeling based on, what I gather, where this, where this conversation's gonna go. I have a feeling that I might have, an additional tip for you as we get through this [00:01:00] conversation. So I'm really excited about this. Erica and Jon, thank you so much for, for, for joining me and for, being willing to share what's working well, what's not working well in your workflows, in your business. And I, let's, let's dive into this. The, the first thing that is going well in your business that you're really proud of, that's been very successful. Can you share what that is? Jon Hayes: Yeah. Absolutely. Well, Scott, thanks a ton for having us. . really honored to be here and share any, any helpful information that we can with the audience. Pre-Production and Planning Process --- Jon Hayes: But yeah, the first part of our workflow that's been going really well for us is our pre-production and planning process. . And so as brand photographers, we feel like we've, we've got a really unique job to do in that we we're not just defined by our style or, the type of story we want to tell. We're actually having to think. in some different shoes, we're having to think of our client's ideal client, like we're having to think one step out. Normally, as photographers, we're thinking of our own ideal client. . Client's Ideal Client and Brand Message --- Jon Hayes: We have to think of our ideal client's, ideal client, and what that means is we have to really understand their brand message and [00:02:00] understand the unique story that they have to tell with their brand so that they can attract their ideal client. . And that's really hard to do when, you know, it's not my business. It's not, it's not, it's not a brand identity that I've developed. It's not a color. scheme that I've developed, it's not a unique story that I've built. It's theirs. And so one of the things we learned really early on as brand photographers was in order to be successful. It really required us to plan and prepare well. As a matter of fact, one of the things we say is we feel like a successful brand photo shoot is 50% planning and preparation and 50% execution. . Which is a lot that we wait on the planning and preparation side. Right. So we, we really believe, we actually promise our clients we'll never just show up with a camera and shoot. like you could in some other areas of photography, maybe family photos, things of that nature where you could just show up and start taking photos. We really have to put an emphasis on the planning and preparation side of things in order to serve them well and be on brand with their story. . Challenges and Learning from Failures --- Jon Hayes: And so one of the things we created to help us with that through, and by the way, created through multiple [00:03:00] failures. Multiple, like flat on our Scott Wyden Kivowitz: way to be. Jon Hayes: where we Yeah, exactly. We left photo shoots, we left so many photo shoots going like. Oh wow. We missed this big time. And we really started to understand the fact that as brand photographers, it was kind of our job to act as a, as a bit of a marketing consulting agency on the planning and preparation side. . So that we could build a pre-production plan that would help serve them. Because many business owners, while they know their brand, they don't necessarily know what it takes to, to, plan a successful photo shoot. Erica Hayes: Yep. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. So there's a couple things I wanna address here. One is, first for those listening, who don't know Erica and Jon in their work, first of all, you make sure you check out their site, which we'll share that as we get through this, as well as it'll be in the show notes. you are not doing. Just personal brand photography, you are legitimately doing like the products and like if it is a person, it's also the product that they make. Or if it's a chef, it's also the food that they cook. Or[00:04:00] could literally be a product from a major brand that's internationally known or whatever. Right. You're doing brand in general work. Right. Erica Hayes: Yes. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So it, it's quite different than just your, your personal brand photographer. 'cause it, it's a whole nother level. Which is, is a good reason why, why when you say it's not just about your client, it's about your client's clients. That is why, 'cause it's literally being used to sell to their customer. so there's a lot. And just to relate a little bit to what I do, I've, I've shifted in the pandemic, I shifted from photographing families and headshots and you name it, two. Surprise proposals, that is all I photograph now. And at the same time, I have to think about, not necessarily what the couple's gonna want to share, which I do, but more the relating to the, the planning side. I am mostly planning Erica Hayes: Yeah. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: my, my photography job is so minute compared to how much [00:05:00] planning I'm doing with the client, so I totally relate. Two. I would even say it's probably 80% planning for me and 20% photography compared to yours, which is 50 planning and 50 execution. Right. so I, I totally relate. Planning is so essential, but especially more when it's related to your clients making money. Erica Hayes: Right. Yeah, Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right. Jon Hayes: absolutely. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. so that's gotta be a lot of fun to, to, To sort of play this, this marketing role for, for your clients? They probably, I would assume, just putting myself in the, in the mindset of the potential client. I would assume that getting this sort of extra bonus marketing voice is a huge value add. . what's the type of feedback you, you hear typically when it comes to that? Jon Hayes: Oh, for sure. Understanding Client Needs and Feedback --- Jon Hayes: well, I think that oftentimes we'll have, especially if they're smaller brands, new brands or personal brands, and they don't have a, a very, def, [00:06:00] well-defined and established brand identity, we find that a lot of the questions we ask them to start are process of planning, which we call it the plan style, create process. A lot of the questions we ask to start that process off, get them thinking in a way that they haven't thought about their brand before. So especially for, like I said, smaller, new or personal brand businesses, we're challenging them to think about their brand in a way that might be a little bit foreign to them and is a little bit of a brain exercise. But I think the value that they get out of that beyond just how it helps us serve them, is exponential because now they've got more clarity on their brand and they can. You know, that that can trickle down into so many different aspects of their marketing. . when it comes to larger scale brands that are more established, that's a totally different animal because oftentimes marketing agencies or those brand, marketing reps, they'll have a full brand brief. Right. And it's like, it's so in depth. We've gotten some that are like. Close to a hundred pages long. . of brand specifics, you know, with, with how images are used and how their logo should appear and, all sorts of things. Erica Hayes: How, how towels [00:07:00] can be folded within the photos that we're creating. Yeah. So it's like it can get so specific when you're working. With so many different brands, but I think when it comes down to like what you said, what is the feedback people say, yeah, honestly, it's so positive and it it, it ends more so with, I don't know what the investment is, but I have to work with you. Yeah. Like, I have to partner with you because now I understand that like you're not just gonna show up and take pictures and call it good, like you're di like diving in deep and helping me communicate my story that's behind my brand and it's. It really is invaluable to people Jon Hayes: and I think it's been really a unique experience for us, even when we've worked with some very well established brands. specifically we worked with, soft Scrub, like the Cleaning Company and Snuggle. Erica always loved the Snuggle Bear growing up. I didn't even know the Snuggle Bear existed. but we got to snuggle with the Snuggle Bear, which was cool. Yeah, it's it's Erica Hayes: a real thing and he is like, I never grew up seeing that. I'm like, if you ever saw a snuggle commercial. You saw the snuggle bear Jon Hayes: [00:08:00] when? When we worked with that, that company though. Even to see that a well established marketing agency that was working with this large global company still had room for us to speak. . ideas and feedback into their plan and improve it. . And so I think even to get that type of feedback from a really well established client that, specifically I remember Kathleen, one of our points of contact for that shoot. She was like. They, we came in with a plan, but they elevated this plan. . They helped recommend locations, they helped us with prop styling. They helped us in so many different aspects to bring this thing together. and so I think it's, it's been really neat to see that, provide value across the board, whether it's a smaller business or So someone more established. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So let me ask you this, you brought up like how you fold a towel, just as an example, right? I'm sure there's a. Billion examples like that, but does it all, how often would it come up where you disagree with their recommendation of how to fold a towel and then you [00:09:00] share your thought on the better way to fold a towel? Is there an argument back and forth, and who wins that argument? Typically? Erica Hayes: the funny part is, is the towel thing. I was like, oh my gosh, you're so right. Like it's the smooth, it's the rounded part where it's not the lines of the, like, if I'm making sense. That they wanted facing the camera. And I was like, duh. But for me, we were like logo centered. . We were like, you know, making sure there wasn't a glare and like the whole entire logo was showing. Yeah. so honestly we welcome a lot of feedback when it comes to the specific things like that because we, again, it's our job to create what's gonna best represent their brand versus what, you know, what I might have just quickly put together or, Jon Hayes: yeah. I think when it. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: but, but do you ever, have you ever been in a, in a, in a situation with all of your clients where you know that you're right and they're wrong, but you have to somehow nicely argue that, Jon Hayes: For sure. So I think when it [00:10:00] comes to, when it comes to brand knowledge and things that are important to the brand, so in the example of the towel fold, this was like something that was somehow, I think what was communicated to us is it was like a pet peeve of one of their higher up executives at this huge global company. but some of the things that they shared with us on that shoot too, we would've never known like. We're in a kitchen scene and there's, there's a hand soap in the background and it's like a totally different brand and it's soft in the background. The way we took the photo, 'cause our photo was prominent on, on the project we were shooting, but they said, oh, that, that brand of soap is from a different manufacturer and it, you know, our parent company actually has a soap like this, so it's got a. So like if I wouldn't, there's no way I could have possibly known that. So that feedback was incredibly helpful. I think if there's ever anything where there's friction, it maybe is more on the, less on the brand knowledge side and more on the the camera or technical side, with, Hey, I want this like this, or I want this photo here, or this is the best location for this shot. And I think in those situations we usually try. [00:11:00] Our, our philosophy around any friction with a client is say no, as little as possible. . And try instead to say, yes, we can do that, and then let me show you this too. Right. and so yes, but I'd rather say yes, but rather than no. And so, often it reminds me of like our wedding photography days too. Somebody would want a picture in front of a water fountain in broad sun with terrible light in raccoon eyes, and we'd be like, okay, cool. We'll take that shot. Now let's come over here to this spot that you're not gonna think is gonna look good, but I know is really gonna photograph well. so we'll take that approach with disagreements with clients and, and some of those issues. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: . Yeah. I, I can imagine things like the client saying, well, you know what? These towels will look better from more of like. This angle top down, but then you'll reply saying, you know, yes, but I have this suggestion instead of for an angle that, you know, I could totally see that being a thing. Dynamic Work Split Between Erica and Jon --- Scott Wyden Kivowitz: one thing before I forget, I like to ask when I, when I talk to couples, how does your work split between the two of you? Are you both [00:12:00] shooting or is one of you more the creative, one of you more in the business? One of one of you more of like, let me talk to the client versus let me not talk to the client. Like, how's that dynamic between the two of you? Jon Hayes: Yeah. So in, in everyday, business, one of the reasons I joined Erica, so, so she already had a photography business . When I started shooting with her. And one of the reasons I joined her in that is she was like, I love taking photos. I hate business. so that definitely falls into my bucket. Client consultations. all of that falls into my bucket. The creative side is Erica's strong suit. Yeah. And where she really shine. And I would Erica Hayes: say like, I'm the dreamer. Like I, I have the idea and I'm like. To execute on this, I feel like I would rather just get back in bed. So if I can have someone to help me execute, like connect the dots, that's Jon. Like, he's the one who's like, I know how to make that happen. I'm like, great. 'cause this is the thought I have. So that's how it works on the business side. But on the shoot day, yeah, on photo shoot Jon Hayes: day, I think it's a split. Yeah. and, and it really depends on the shoot. So if it's lighting heavy, if it's very technical . typically I like that challenge [00:13:00] and I'll step up and lead, shoot that, and Erica will be paying attention to details, socializing with the client, whatever's needed, styling and styling, jumping Erica Hayes: in to do the styling, and then he's taking the shot. Jon Hayes: if it's more personal brand or personality focused, Erica usually takes the lead. I mean, she's, she's got such a brighter smile than me. Erica Hayes: Well, well, and Jon, he's, he's, again, it's like to tell somebody no, like, don't do that, like, oh. Got like, you gotta smoothly take them in and out of a pose. And so if we can just read the client and we know that it's gonna be a better thing that I, 'cause I can kind of predict, you know, when you know someone's personality, like how is this gonna go? And I can work with them real easily and smoothly where Jon just. It reminds me of a shoot. Jon Hayes: So I, I like to say that I, I struggle with social cues and so, I, it reminds me of a shoot that I walked into usually on shoot day, especially if it's a personal brand. I come in and I'm like, what's up? It's time to party. Let's go. I try and set the energy really high so people feel comfortable. And if I, my goal is if they look at me as like, wow, Jon's a [00:14:00] little bit of a goofball, hopefully that lets them feel free to like open up throughout the shoot. . And follow our instruction. Do some things they might not be comfortable with. And I'll never forget we walked into the shoot, it was with a very elevated personal brand. And I walked in that way and Erica looked at me like. Stop. No more, don't let me handle this. Because she had already gotten a read on the client, the, like, she was not about that. It was very sophisticated. Very, yes. I don't know. I don't even know the word for it. Erica Hayes: yeah. It just, it was a different feel and that's okay. Yeah. Like again, we can, we can do the fun and the pep and the hype. We can also go as slow as you need to go so that you don't feel rushed and you don't feel stressed. and that was way more of the mode and I just, I feel like I can pick up on that stuff really easily. So we just divide and conquer based on our own individual strengths. . And what we can tell the shoot is gonna require. Yeah. And a lot of times, you know, I'll pop the camera in Jon's hand and I'm like, Hey. We got lots of curls and I gotta work with hair. I need to make sure that like, you know, jackets are in order. And [00:15:00] I just see those things like it's, it's a blessing and a curse, but I can't see a situation and miss like the tiny details that might be outta place. And so, we'll, you know, have me in that role a lot while Jon's doing the camera or the, I think what's really awesome Jon Hayes: is, like, Scott, I'm sure you've had situations where creatively things just aren't flowing well. And it's like a struggle and you really have to like just keep like part of you wants to just disengage and be like, I don't know what to do here. But the part of you that understands you can't do that, just fights to stay in the game and, and try and work through that problem. I think one of the things I really appreciate is when either one of us gets stuck, we've got each other. Like if I'm trying to take a shot and it's just not coming together, I'm just like. Here you try because I'm sure you're gonna have just a fresh perspective and a different take on this and, that always usually works out pretty well too. Erica Hayes: Well, and there's times that I have it and there's times where I'm like, you know, this situation's just not working. I think what we need to do is just get a fresh start and so it's like it, we can really just read each other, in that way, which I think is [00:16:00] beneficial and should be the case with any second shooter you go on, is just to be able to communicate. and I think with what we do, that really allows us to communicate openly. . Where it doesn't have to be an emotional moment where we're like, stop everybody freeze. This is terrible. We need to move on. We can have a very much more production way of going about it, where it just allows us to pivot in real time when we need to. . Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It's nice that you guys have that, you have each other, and you have, you know, what each of your strengths and we weaknesses are and you can delegate as needed and trade off when needed and, step up or step down as needed and whatnot. So it's, it's really good. That's really good that you have that. I wanted to ask something else before we move on to the next one, and I totally forgot what it is, so we're just gonna move into the next one and maybe it'll come back to me. That'd be nice. Erica Hayes: Love it. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so, there was another thing that you, mentioned to me before recording that was working well. in your workflows. Can you share what that was? Pricing Model and Custom Quotes --- Jon Hayes: Yeah, so the other thing [00:17:00] that we feel is really well refined in our business and has been, it's been really cool to see this scale and be replicable across our business. As our business has grown and we've brought on team members as well, is our pricing model. I. And so with what we do with brands, it's really, really unique because, one of the things we, we tell our students all the time too is like collection pricing or package pricing that works in the wedding industry or with family photos and things of that nature. It really doesn't work well with brands unless I. You're niching to work with the same type of brand over and over again, you have no interest in going outside of that. For example, if you're, if you wanna work with social media influencers, that's all you want to do, cool. Package pricing might work for you. But if you want to take an approach more like we do where, you know, our niche, if you will, we, we just say it's telling a brand's image story, which every brand has a story to tell. So that opens us a pretty wide net. . We like the challenge of that. if, if we're gonna do that, then we need to have pricing that's adaptable to each type of client and the unique needs that they have. And so again, lesson learned through trial and error and complete failure. We, [00:18:00] we used to try to develop collection pricing that would be a one size fits all for the, the brand that was . Gonna work with us. And we'd think we finally had it developed and then we'd get an inquiry and realize it fit none of our packages. . And it kind of just gave us the awareness, one day that we would have to custom quote every single project that we did for brands. And, if anybody listening to us right now say, that feels absolute like fear. complete chaos and shock and awe in inside of their soul like we, we did too. so we're like, we've gotta figure out a way to tailor pricing in a custom way to these brands, but we can't be going back to the drawing board every single time we get an inquiry. That's just not gonna be scalable. That's not gonna work. Erica Hayes: Right. And I think that's the important thing to note is we're saying this from a point of some scars on that side of our business. Yeah. Like, there was a time where we were getting proposals and it was like. Well, this number sounds good. Like I'm sure they would pay us this, or it was like, oh, like no, this, this brand has some like [00:19:00] beef to it. Like this is gonna really be the booster. We can charge higher. So it's like we went through a time where it was based on gut. It was painful. Like it wasn't smooth. We didn't have the confidence in what we were doing, and it was like. When we landed the job, it was like, well, I don't know. Did we, did we do that right? Did we miss something? Did we, did we Jon Hayes: undersell ourselves? Did we oversell ourselves? Yeah. How did we handle this? And so one of the things we did is we developed, a pricing model that we call the four Building Block Pricing System. I. That helps us custom quote, every single inquiry that we get. And one of the, one of the things we say about it is that it helps us custom quote 99% of brand RV projects in five minutes or less. . Which is a huge, it's a huge thing to say, but it's true. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's what we use day in and day out in our business, to meet brands where they are and give them a custom proposal. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: And what, is this like a, an app you made? Is it a spreadsheet that you put together that allows you to re. Reuse it over and over again. Is it like, how, how does this live within your business that you, that Erica Hayes: How? Scott Wyden Kivowitz: it is a, yeah. How, how do you put, and of [00:20:00] course, like, I don't know if you're selling this to, to, to, you know, education clients. I don't know what, what you've got, but it please share Jon Hayes: Yeah, absolutely. No, I'm happy to share about it. Happy to share about it. Absolutely. So, one of the things that is unique about brand photography too, is. When, when you're, when you are paid as a photographer to go capture wedding day images or family, family images, surprise proposal images . You're being paid to show up there with your camera, take the photos and, and deliver the photos, and some people do in-person sales on the back end of that, which is an added layer, but otherwise it's kind of an all in one cost. When we think of the variables that exist though with brands, there, there's so many variables. There's, there's the cost for. Yeah, there's the cost for me to show up and actually do the creative side of things. There's also, to the point you just brought up, how are the photos gonna be used and what's the marketing value of that photo and how do we capture that through licensing? There's pre-production costs based on like, are we, are we. Securing locations and paying those. Are we, doing any other sort of planning that's gonna require upfront costs? Are [00:21:00] there any other vendors involved in this shoot coming together? to, to as big as like, does a set need to be built? . What does that look like? Do do custom, pieces of equipment need to be, rented or secured for the photo shoot. and then just additional expenses that we've got. So we break that down into four. Buckets, in our four building block pricing system that we teach students how to develop the rates within each of those four buckets. So the four buckets are, number one, your creative rate, so your rate to show up and just execute as a photographer. . What is your rate to show up and handle the shoot? And typically we break that down by an hourly, half day or full day cost. . Understanding Value Add Services --- Jon Hayes: so bucket number one is creative rate number two. Is value add. value add, what's the word I'm Services, value add. Thank you. Value add services. So anything that we would offer above and beyond just us showing up to execute on the photo shoot that we would monetize and bill our client for. So some of that is our pre-production process that we talked about earlier. Plan style, create process. some of that, like I mentioned would be, You know, are we gonna do additional things like a wardrobe consultation or are there any additional [00:22:00] meetings involved, that would be compensated for any additional planning elements that we're bringing to the table? Well, Erica Hayes: and like we don't do video, so, but we do partner with videographers. So it's like, are we going to provide video through who we're partnering with? Again, that's like additional value that we're providing in the form of a service that. You know, wouldn't be there otherwise. Jon Hayes: So we've got those different items that we typically offer our clients that are built into that bucket. . With markup on them that we would, use in our building, our pricing system. The Importance of Image Licensing --- Jon Hayes: The third is image licensing. And that's a huge variable and it's actually where a huge opportunity is. In this space because one of the things I like to unpack for people is like, think of it as, if I took a picture of a sneaker for my Uncle Bill's sneaker startup that he's doing out of his garage, he's making sneakers. He is a little cobbler, he's making sneakers. if I took pictures of that shoe for him to launch this sneaker on social media. and then if I went into a studio with Nike and I'm in the studio for two days with all these, you know, brand reps and shoe artists and all these different [00:23:00] people in the room with the singular goal of creating like five final photos that they would use globally to launch this sneaker, I. At the end of the day, like there's not a huge difference in my skillset as a photographer, right? I'm still just showing up and I, I'm still the same person. I'm still using the same creative skills. So how do I account for the difference in value? 'cause we'd all agree there's a difference in value for Uncle Bill Shoe versus Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Nike. Nike's reach versus your uncle's Jon Hayes: right. right. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: or whoever he was. Jon Hayes: how do we account for that? that's, that's where image licensing comes in. That's how we get paid for the value of the asset that we're creating. . That in turn equals, you know, exponentially more value to that company. so that's the image licensing bucket. Managing Additional Expenses --- Jon Hayes: And then the final one are additional expenses. And those are expenses that, again, in our own business journey. I'll never forget the time we showed up, to shoot the White Sox for the first time. Chicago White Sox. We showed up to shoot them and we had bought. seamless paper backdrops. We rented a generator, we rented all sorts of studio lighting equipment, rolled in there. We ate all of those costs. . [00:24:00] And then we realized, as we progressed through our career that Wow, that's not normal. Those were all kind of cost of doing business for the client. Yeah. so B2B is a little bit different. Bus, you know, business to business is a little bit different. Building a Pricing System --- Jon Hayes: So those are the four building blocks. Creative rate, value add services, image licensing, and additional expenses. And what we teach our students to do is pre-build their pricing through our system, and we help them get to those exact numbers, but pre-build those prices in those buckets so that then when a client comes in, you go, how long is this shoot gonna be? How long do I think I need to serve them? Cool. I grab that out of the bucket. Number one, what, what different services they're gonna need. I grabbed those values outta bucket number two and so forth, so that you can build a proposal really quickly. 'cause you've, you've already established what those rates are. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: . hopefully you get a ton of Nikes in Chicago, white Sox. Um.okay. So I remember the question I wanted to ask you, and you actually mentioned it throughout answering that last question, which is great. I Set Building and Location Sourcing --- Scott Wyden Kivowitz: was actually gonna ask you, what do you typically do with the sets? Is it mostly you have to build a set? Are you outsourcing it to a contractor to build a set? [00:25:00] Are you renting spaces, finding studios? Like what does it like typically look like for, for your business? Erica Hayes: I can't think of a time we took on full on building a set. We've Jon Hayes: never built a full set. We have built custom, we, we have been out in the garage with tools. Yeah. Building custom miniature sets, Erica Hayes: custom props and custom things to like enhance the story of the photos that we were telling. I remember Jon Hayes: when we worked with the restaurant though, we made all of our own backdrops. Yeah. And we built these wooden, we, we tiled. Surfaces for flat lays. We stuccoed surfaces for flat lays, we did concrete stuff, all sorts of stuff to make these backdrops. Yeah. but typically, yeah, it comes down to renting venues for us or renting studio spaces. and that's part of our planning process. Part of what it's, one of the things actually that we give our clients as a complimentary service, is location sourcing, because we found very early on that. We can change a lot of things on photo shoot day. One thing we can't change once we're there is the [00:26:00] location. Yeah. So we wanna make sure that's really dialed. Yeah. and so we, we source locations. We've actually got a location guide that we built out for our business and all the locations we've ever shot in. We build those out in like a magazine format so that we can deliver our clients. a, a custom location guide and we take basically this master list of all these locations we've shot at with pictures and what we like about the space and the rates and everything else. . We remove the things that don't apply and we send them a custom location guide, so that they can see, hey, these are spaces that we know that we trust that are on brand for you. and that's been Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I. And curated for for, your brand, for your products, et cetera. when you, so you rent, let's say you rent a studio. You rent a, a, a commercial kitchen for a, for a job, right?are you ever using things like VFL now makes lay flat, bottoms and backgrounds and things. Are you using stuff like that mixed in with the natural environment, or is it mostly natural environment lit and styled the way that you do want? Jon Hayes: Yeah, it's a mix. I was gonna say it's a, a solid mix. It's a solid Erica Hayes: mix of both. I mean, we've [00:27:00] got, seamless backdrop paper, you know, that will buy individually for clients to match the color of their brands. And so that's one of those, again, one-off things. I mean, we've got a stash of some crazy colors . Because we had brands who wanted the, the bright in the bold and the super vibrant ki. Kind of colors. So that's unique to their brand. in a kitchen Jon Hayes: space though, like thinking to one of the restaurants that we worked with, we had all sorts of ideas around what the background would be for these photos, but then we're in the restaurant and we're like, you guys have these gorgeous natural wood tone tables. . Let's use these. Yeah. Like, we don't need all this other stuff. Let's use these and incorporate other elements like, you know, towel, like linen towels . And raw ingredients and things of that nature to spice up the background of these photos. But what if we create the consistency across the things that you've already got here too? So we always come equipped with plenty of options for backgrounds. And usually, again, in the planning process, those things are kind of talked about and decided on. but then we'll also use the things that are, are there in, in the environment too, to our advantage if we can. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: [00:28:00] Cool. This is, this is, I love learning about this the way that, the way that, you know, it's, it's not too often when, when I get to speak to, to, to photographers that aren't solely focused on people, right? That you've got products mixed in with, with the people that you photograph. So it's, really nice to learn, about these different aspects that you don't get to talk about too much. So I, I love Jon Hayes: Yeah. Awesome. Content Creation Challenges --- Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so the last thing that we wanna talk about is something in your, in your workflow that you are struggling with, that you're working on improving. do you wanna share what, what that is? Jon Hayes: Yeah. I think one of the things, and I think a lot of, a lot of listeners will probably resonate . Is, is content creation. In terms of content that's going to speak to our ideal client, or, and, and because we do educate in this space too, photographers who want to get into brand photography build a similar business to what we've built. It's, it's creating content and it's, and I think it's because, you know, there are so many places for our content to go. There are so many things you could devote time to, and sometimes it's really hard. Like you could do all the things and you could [00:29:00] create content pieces for every platform. You could be everywhere, all at once. But it gets really challenging then to measure the return on investment on those efforts. sometimes even as complex as we've gotten of working with different software that, that help, you know, help us see where those channels are coming from. Sometimes it's still a big question mark. . And so I think one of the things we realize, we, I was actually just talking with somebody about this a few days ago and it makes me laugh, but I think actually. Any, any listeners can go check me on this. If you go to our website, Erica and Jon, no, h and Jon, just J-O-N-E-R-I-C-A and Jon.com. If you go there and look at the bottom of our social links, I'm pretty sure we might have a Pinterest icon down there that goes to absolutely nothing. Oh gosh. Because four years ago we intended to get on Pinterest, and Scott Wyden Kivowitz: there anymore. Jon Hayes: it's not there anymore. Okay. Thank goodness. We're still on p We we're still not on Pinterest. And the reason why is. We looked at. Okay. I Erica Hayes: love that he checked you. Yeah, thank you. Jon Hayes: We could try to be everywhere. Yeah. And burn ourselves out and potentially talk to no one. . Or we can just [00:30:00] look at, one of my favorite quotes is from Craig Rochelle. He says, successful people do consistently what others do occasionally. . And I think there's just such a truth in that, in, in all aspects of life, of like the tiny steps taken on a consistent basis lead to more growth over time than just occasional acts of like a big effort. . And so one of the things we looked at was. Where can we commit to showing up on a regular basis that doesn't feel like it's gonna burn us out? . That we can at least just commit to this is where we are for now. If we can ever grow beyond that, great. . But if not, what are the places we know we can consistently show up to? but content's kinda your thing, so do you wanna talk about that? Erica Hayes: God's kind of my thing. And people will like say like, you do so good. I'm like, really? You wanna come behind the scenes and see how that content was pumped out? Because it was on a whim when I had the thought and like. There's, so, I have so many good intentions truly, of doing the whole, I'm gonna prep for a month of content in advance, but I maybe have [00:31:00] done that like, I don't know, less than 10 times in over the course of our business have I been successful sitting down, planning it out, know, knowing what photo was gonna go with what, or knowing what kind of nowadays real I was gonna make with, you know, what it was gonna be. and I think that's just because. It's just like, again, like Jon was saying, it's so important, but at the same time, am I moving my business further along by doing this or by doing something different? And so I think that's the part that constantly becomes a pain point. . Because we're always like, well, geez, is it worth taking the time to do this right now or is it not? so truly, I mean, we talk with people about it all the time, but it's like, yeah, it's an, an ongoing. Not yet perfectly solved issue that we face in our business. Jon Hayes: We, we have a goal of what we want to get to Scott, that we're, yeah. I honestly wrote down on a napkin four years ago now that we still have not gotten there. It was in 20, it was in 2020. I think that's, that's why I think it's such a Scott Wyden Kivowitz: A revenue goal, or you mean like a Jon Hayes: A content, a content. Erica Hayes: [00:32:00] Produce production, Jon Hayes: workflow. Yeah. Goal that we still haven't gotten to yet. And so, for, you know, full transparency. right now the things we've committed to are our Instagram, our Facebook group, and, our blog. And email. And email. And I just posted our blog that was supposed to go up at nine o'clock this morning. I posted it at 8 53 this morning. Like, it's, that's, that's not a great workflow, right? So one of the things that we want to work towards is, creating content in the, in the same format. We're creating content with you right now on this podcast with, with a podcast, with a video element that we can then take and we can chop all of those bits up and, and . You know, use those across so many different platforms. It's actually getting there and getting it all set up and the structure of it set up and the time and planning it all out, that, that gets to feel really difficult because. You've got at the same time you have what's currently set up. That obviously shows me posting a blog seven minutes before it's supposed to go live. That doesn't leave a whole lot of margin for Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Not the end of the world, by the way, Erica Hayes: Yeah. Jon Hayes: Not the end of the world. Yeah, not the end of the [00:33:00] world. But, still it doesn't leave a lot of margin for us to set up something brand new that's unknown, that needs to be figured out. And obviously it's not a rev, that's not a revolutionary content model. A lot of people do that. but yeah, full transparency, that's a, that's a spot that we struggle with and I think the reason why it's such, why it's such a, A pain point for us personally is like, we know the transformation we've been able to see in our business through the things we've learned. . We obviously wanna share that with others and for businesses that, you know, want our services, we wanna show them what we're able to do. And so we feel like there's, there's an importance and it's even beyond just teaching photographers how to be great brand photographers. Like when I think of, if I'm able to, if we're able to help someone increase revenue in their business as a brand photographer, like it, it's more That sounds cool. But it's way beyond that, like that trickles down. Maybe that that helps relieve stress inside of a home. Maybe that allows a parent to have more time with their child. Maybe that, alleviates friction in a marriage. Like there's so many things that, that trickles down to that are non-tangible. I can't see. I. That I know are taking place behind [00:34:00] the scenes. And so when we recognize that the way to get our message out there is through content, to show people what there is and make them aware of what's available, and it feels like such a bottleneck for us to break through and get to the place we want to be. It creates a lot of friction, I think. Erica Hayes: Yeah. Jon Hayes: for us on a regular basis. Future Goals and Podcast Plans --- Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It's, interesting that you brought up that you've been wanting to do a podcast. I was actually gonna suggest that. so, my, I guess my next question is based on your last comment, is the podcast that you want to do for your education side of your business or for the brand photography side of your business? Jon Hayes: I'd say both and with more of a heavyweight towards photographers and the education side. . But I think the idea we've had for a podcast is, I mean, we've been able to work with some really cool people . Over the course of our careers that are all. Business owners or high up decision makers and businesses in their own right that have wisdom to share. And we've thought it would be so cool to bring different voices of [00:35:00] people, clients that we've worked with. so in that aspect, it's for our photography clients. . because past clients get opportunity to share, maybe, maybe people who need services like that go, oh wow. I have the same kind of business. I'd love to work with Eric and Jon's company, but also from the education standpoint to show people, what's possible and teach business advice and things like that through the podcast. Erica Hayes: And I Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I love this idea. and I, I could talk about this with you for days. So, anyways, Eric, I didn't mean to cut you off. Erica Hayes: no, I didn't mean to cut you off. sounds like we might need to talk to you about it for days, but I think the, the part of speaking to the photographers that's so important is, like I kind of mentioned earlier, it's like I. We don't ever sit where we're at in our business without remembering . Like the, like the hard things that we had to go through to get to where we can sit and like tell people what's possible. . Because we went through a lot of years of like, we're just done. We're just gonna be completely done. Like, this will be so much easier. . Jon's really cushy job at the, you know, empire where he worked before sounds a whole lot better. So I think [00:36:00] those things because it's just what's so real and I think a lot of people. Can relate to those feelings. And so yes, we have each other and I think I'm so grateful we didn't have to have those seasons alone, but I know there's a lot of photographers who don't have a business partner, or even a second shooter or even a team member. And so it's like for them to know like, you're not alone. It's okay. It's okay. Like you're not the only one. It's like that would be the really cool part I I see. For that side of who we'd be speaking to. Yeah. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Yeah. When, when we're done recording, we're gonna talk a little bit more about this, but, yeah, this is, this is, this is great. I think, you know, it, it is a struggle for anybody, whether you have a partner or not in your business to do the content side of things. I personally, I also despise social media, but. We have no choice these days, right? It's, it's a big part of marketing. So to me, I, I treat social media as, let me get them to my email list to then utilize that, which I know is is effective. Outsourcing and Team Building --- Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so with [00:37:00] that said, I always recommend whenever I'm talking to a, photographers that have a very successful business, right? That Sure. You could do it yourself, but you could also hire somebody, right? Even if it's somebody hungry straight outta college to, to do some of this. They may ne they might, they may not necessarily, be getting their hands on the camera, you know, during your sessions, but they could be doing BTS and they could be coming up with content ideas for you while you are on the job. And they could also be your assistant carrying bags, et cetera. Right. These people are, are hungry, right? They, they want to get into the business fast. And you also have a, you're in a genre of photography that is not very popular, right? compared to weddings or, or families, right? Things like that. so you're, if you find people from a college, you're gonna find people that are [00:38:00] really interesting, interested in what you're doing. That would absorb like crazy. So, you know, you're gonna help yourself, but you're also gonna help somebody that could in five, 10 years could be where you are. Which would be amazing to have played a role like that. Right. so that's, that's my thought on that, besides from the podcast, just, content in general is utilize college students that are hungry, Erica Hayes: Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, it's, it's so true. And I think it's one of those things where it's like your own limiting belief. Like, ah, it's gotta be me, you know? It has to be me be, it has to be my creative idea. It has to be that. And so. In full transparency, let's, there's some of those things that we've had to break down. Being, being, saying, like, okay, I can actually outsource my editing. Like what? I never thought I would be able to say that. Like truly day one, I was like, yeah. Right. And coming from somebody who likes to be the master of control. Yeah. It's like, yeah, right. I'll never be able to do that. So there is so much truth to what you said. and I think it's just applying it to a different place of our [00:39:00] business. It's like it didn't feel easy when we started outsourcing. X, y, and Z in the first place, but then it became like the most beautiful thing to say. I'm passing this off to you, and I know there's a lot of truth in that being the same with, content creation, so. . Thanks for that nudge. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: of course. Conclusion and Resources --- Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Erica and Jon, this has been a fantastic conversation. I, I know I've like. You, you've opened my eyes to some things that I never thought about before, so it's really, it's really fun to, to be able to learn some new things. when I have these conversations you, you did mention where everybody can find you before, but if you can say it one more time where everybody can find you, connect with you, and of course see your incredible brand photography. Jon Hayes: well, thanks. yeah, you can find us, at erica and Jon.com. So it's E-R-I-C-A, the word and Jon JO n.com. also on Instagram at Erica and Jon. And, for all the listeners, if there's anybody listening that's interested in brand photography, as we've mentioned a couple times, we do have, we we're educators in that space, so we've got courses and classes, but we also have free resources around that. . that we're happy to make available. [00:40:00] So if anybody wants, we've got a few resources like our personal brand shot list, which helps with the planning side, especially if you're working with a personal brand. . we also have a free resource called Five Pricing Mistakes. That Helps, helps kind of evaluate where you're at with pricing in your brand photography business and avoid some of those. Things that we stumbled down. and we have a free class too, on how to break into brand photography. So if anybody listening is interested in learning, how do I add brand photography to what I offer? maybe you're a wedding photographer or you work with families and you recognize, hey, there's an opportunity here to serve brands too. we've got a free class that can help with that too. All of those can be found, at ericaandJon.com/links and, you'll see all those resources available there. Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yep, and I'll, I'll have this also in the show notes that everybody can just do a quick click from on the. Phones or wherever you're listening and and access all that. So thank you again for joining me. This has been an incredible conversation. Erica Hayes: Thanks for having us. Awesome. Thank you, Scott. ​ [00:41:00]