Show transcription
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Hello, Luci. Welcome to the Workflows Photography Podcast.
Luci Dumas: Thank you, Scott. I'm so excited to get to chat with you after having such a great conversation for my show, which will be coming up soon. So thanks.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Yeah. So, so, the episode with me on your show is going to be out probably way sooner than this one. but it'll be exciting and I'll be able to link to that episode in the show notes for this one. So we can never, you know, drive everybody to listen to both, which is great. so I'm, I'm very excited about this. Season four is a really fun, fun one for us here at Imagine. Because we're getting really down to the nitty gritty on each guest's personal workflows and what's [00:01:00] working well, what's not working well. So I'd love to kick things off and hear from you about one of the two areas that we're going to talk about.
Let's start with the first of what is working well for you. and if you need a reminder of what we talked about prior to recording, I can remind you if you remember, I am happy to just. Just hear what you have to say.
Luci Dumas: I remember the first one. So I just launch, launch into that. Is that what you want?
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah,
Luci Dumas: Okay. So my superpower is selling wall portraits in person. Most of my clients invest in three to seven or more and invest in one. Maybe 3, 500 to, I have had 30, 000, but generally in that, you know, mid to high four figures and really the core of it and the core of how I've helped [00:02:00] my coaching clients achieve this is by a, a systematic step by step approach to taking a warm lead, someone with good potential, and then step by step taking them through.
This whole system to the end where there's the opportunity for them to write me great big checks and give me hugs and cry and so forth. in fact, two of my clients this week notified me that they just had their biggest sales yet. And they're both fairly new coaching clients. One was 8, 000 and one was 6, 000.
The 8, 000 when started, With zero, she had not even started her business a year, year and a half ago. So it, I'm so proud and it really is the system and the people who don't already have something locked in place, but can just [00:03:00] like do it this way are the ones I find that, have the biggest change immediately or not immediately, but soon.
So
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: and all these, all these, all these, these conversations, they're all happening like literally in person, not through like a zoom or, or something virtual.
Luci Dumas: yes. Now. In a pinch, maybe zoom could be a part of it if it absolutely was impossible. but I've found that it's really hard to close the sale. In fact, one of my best clients who's ordered well in the past, we did it on zoom cause I thought, Oh, she knows the drill and it's been a year and I have yet to have her finish her order.
So it starts with a phone call and. When anybody contacts me in any way, the first thing I do is get their phone number, if they haven't given it to me, and [00:04:00] also invite them to call me. The core is I'm building a relationship I call the trusted advisor, and what that means is I get them to feel comfortable, to like me, to have them know that I'm interested, I'm listening to them.
I'm a nice person. I'm knowledgeable. And then I get them super excited on that phone call about the potential. And then when they're at that point where they're like, Oh man, I hope I can afford her. Then I give a very short, and this is a Charles Lewis, been using this 30 plus years, sentence. Most people invest a minimum of X to X, only don't say X.
Thanks. and that might include something nice for your home and a few smaller ones for family or friends. Does that fit within your [00:05:00] budget? And I keep it in the, like, this might shock people, but the five to seven hundred range. Because the very budget people, that's too high for them. Especially once they realize they're not getting a hundred and fifty digital files.
Okay. They're, they're, you know, I'm about the printed photography. The people who are hot prospects, it's not so high that they go, Oh, I'm not really prepared to spend that. So, we'll get back to you. So it's like, yeah, sure, five to 700. I can, I can do that. So then we get a consultation and 90 percent of the time I do that in person.
Yeah. Whether I go to their home, or they come here to my conference room, office, home. And at that consultation, I show them the work, [00:06:00] I continue to build that advisor relationship. I have them bring photographs of the interior of their home, so I can see the colors and style. This is for portraits, weddings, you know, little different questions, but same kind of, build that connection.
for your attention. Then, then we book the session, and then at the session, I'm also planting the seeds for the wall portrait purchase.making sure they know that they're going to come in, that the spouse knows they're going to come in for the sale. And then when I get to the sale, I have a workflow with that.
of how I show the work.I have some secret sauce that I think I invented. so do you want to hear about that? Any questions so far?
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: That it's, if you want to share secret sauce, Yeah. By all means, you don't have to. It's totally up to you if you want to.
Luci Dumas: It's [00:07:00] not a secret. It's just, you know, I've been Okay, so first I do a slideshow put to music. I show them about 80 images. In the slideshow it might be 40. but I want them to have a lot to choose from. So that the best ones stay in the gallery. If I narrow down to the best 40, they're going to take out half.
So, anyway, so we have a pretty slideshow. And then we do a round of yes, no, maybe. Then we do a round of, narrowing down to the best, In each particular pose, then this is my, part one of my secret sauce. We separate them into potential categories. Could this be wall, or small, or album? What's the highest potential?
Then I do a slideshow of the wall portraits twice. [00:08:00] And this is worth memorizing. I want you to notice which ones, Give you like you could make up warm your heart or give you a great feeling. I'm gonna run through it twice You'll notice you get that same feeling again And if you purchase this as art for your home, you will have this feeling Every day for the rest of your life, so I'm future pacing them
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.
Luci Dumas: other thing is when they've brought in the this this It goes back a few workflow steps, but when they come in, I've asked them to look around and imagine some spaces, always plural, that might be nice to display photographic art.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.
Luci Dumas: those spaces start to look lonely and empty to them. While they're waiting for this process.then we go through those we [00:09:00] narrow and I move the ones down That didn't give them that strong feeling and then we start figuring out what to do with them where to put them What groupings can go somewhere?
What should be the main one? Canvas not canvas gallery rafts all of that
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. You're, you're planting a lot of seeds throughout this process of, of sort of like subliminally getting in their head that, you know, they're going to be buying something, this is where. This is where, I am not a sales, a salesperson, and I've always struggled with selling, even back in my, camera retail store days, you know, I, I wouldn't try to sell, and I, I think, and this is kind of where you're going with this, in, in, in a way, like, you're not selling, you're, you're planting seeds, you're, you're pulling on their heart strings, you're, getting to really, [00:10:00] think about what they're going to want.
and like when I was in a camera store work, working retail, I would have them get their hands on it and try it and let them ask me questions about it rather than me being, this is the one, this is the one you want, you want this one. Like, you know, it's, you want them to make the decision, but you're nudging them in the direction that you want them to go.
so it's like a fine line,
Luci Dumas: Exactly. And it comes from, first of all, listening
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.
Luci Dumas: and really trying to determine what might serve them. Now, I so believe in the value of finished art in people's homes that I believe everyone should have them. That's my assumption.because I know how much it has meant to families that have come back, too.
Wedding couples that say they see their wedding pictures on the wall and realize, Oh, we're still in love, even though [00:11:00] we, it's been a long time. so it starts with that, but I put on my designer hat, my decorator hat, and that's not sales. That's really, it's service, good sales. The core of that is service.
And Scott, most of my coaching clients don't consider themselves good salespeople. But when you've got this system where you just, okay, have this kind of conversation with these steps, boom, boom, boom, then have this consultation and show them and do this thing, then do the shoot and kind of prepare them and then have a system.
it, they sell themselves. You don't have to find this golden salesman personality. Right.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: But before we move on to the next thing that's working well, I have one question for you. And that is, What would you say to the photographers like me? [00:12:00] So, I do surprise proposal photography. I just did two this weekend on a movie. Following Thanksgiving and Black Friday and Small Business Saturday, I had two proposal sessions back to back.
Now, I also have a full time job here at Imagine, so I don't have the, plus I have two small kids, you know, I've got things going on, I don't have the mental and physical bandwidth to do the IPS, right? So what would you say to the people like me that, Maybe there is a way for us to do it, but we're also are, we're scared of the sales.
We, don't think, think we have the time for it. What would you say to the people like us, the people like me that are doing the, here's the gallery, you can buy prints, you can buy wall art, et cetera.
Luci Dumas: So first of all, When you can begin to really [00:13:00] understand that perhaps you're not being fair to them by not giving your expertise, by not taking the time to help them have what, in my heart, I believe is really, really important. About this when, when you get that in your soul, like I want to be of service and these people have these digital files and they're not printing them.
And if they are, they're not printing them. Right. And, and I, I want to figure out how to do that. So, option a is to find somebody that is sales minded, friendly, nice, have somebody like me, train them, and then let them do the sales work on commission. Everybody makes more money, and the clients get these amazing images in their home, and books, and all the things.
the [00:14:00] second thing is, when you're doing the sales, you get to do half as many shoots. And you get to make friends with them. You get more connection. You get people, 25 years later, coming back and saying, saying, you know, the portraits that we invested in umpteen years ago are the best investment we made in our family's entire life.
So it's, it's that, and also there is such a deep satisfaction that people are missing out on in delivering the work, getting the hugs, seeing your work, big, you know, I love seeing my work printed beautifully. And it also helps us improve our photography, because when we see what people will purchase, what their reactions are in [00:15:00] person, when they see them large from a projector, then we shoot the ones we know they are going to like, we don't waste our time with, like, when I did weddings and, It was, everybody had a book and it was film and such.
People would tell me they loved candids. And, I'm really good at candids. So, I would do a bunch. Would those candids end up in the wedding album when they had to purchase them one at a time? Oh, very few.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right.
Luci Dumas: I learned. I still did them because they're fun. But, I learned, like, I had somebody on my show that's a pet photographer, and she said when she started selling her work, she realized nobody really liked the picture of a dog jumping up about to catch food with their mouth hanging open.
They don't buy that one. And a lot of people, like, they always have to do that when they're [00:16:00] doing pets because they don't realize that doesn't touch anyone's heart. It might be fun in a book.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It's funny you
Luci Dumas: Does that make sense?
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So, the, the, the, just like regarding the, the, the dog thing. Completely off topic from what we're talking about, about IPS, but, so the proposal that I had yesterday, there was the, the, the guy who proposed to, to his girlfriend, now fiancee, he also surprised her afterwards having her brother, I believe, bring her dog.
Cause she knew, he knew that she would want her dog to be in some of the photos. So not in the proposal itself, but afterwards during like the mini engagement session, the dog was there. And the dog wasn't cooperating, she was a little overstimulated by everything. And, the property where they had it, there was also two dogs on the property so she was sniffing everything. It was chaotic. However, they got treats for the dog, and eventually, we got some really cute [00:17:00] photos with the dog, andthe dog started howling, so I've got probably 30 photos of the dog with them, everybody smiling, including the dog, because dogs smile, and the dog is howling, like, and then there's some photos where the dog's looking right at me, and there's some where the dog's barking, so I didn't, Mark my Barking ones as keepers, but I totally did the howling ones because they're adorable Whether they buy the howling ones versus the non, that'll be interesting to see but I knew I had to include both because they're super cute and You know, maybe maybe they want one versus the other but anyway, I thought that was very interesting comment Because I literally was thinking about that yesterday You
Luci Dumas: were sitting with them, and you were all looking at the images six feet wide, you would hear their reaction to it. And it may be like sometimes [00:18:00] people, think that there's an image. That they don't care for. And if it was online, I'm not there to say, Oh, I can, I can fix that straight hair or, you know, this one's beautiful because you're all looking together off camera, like you're looking towards your future.
Like I can explain to them what makes something wonderful. I literally have a squirrel out, you know, where the squirrel, I have a squirrel right now. So that's part of being a guide is they often will buy things that if they were left to their own decisions, people gravitate towards looking at the camera in general, if those are available, but something that they may think, oh, I look fat in that when I can explain, you know, look at the emotion here and [00:19:00] even like, because I put myself as an art designer, I can explain the design elements, the, you know, You know, look how this starts in the left corner, and your eye travels here, and then it goes around, and, and the colors are harmonious, and that's something people don't know.
That's my expertise. And that kind of expertise, adds a zero to the perception of value. At least one zero.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Let's, let's dig into the second area, which you said was working well, which was just your general client workflow. no, I'm, are you talking about, like, The interactions beforehand, are you talking about like the CRM aspects, like the automations, the nurturing, what, what, when you shared that with me, what exactly what you're, where you're referring to when it came to the general client workflow?
Luci Dumas: worked at solar [00:20:00] turbines. In the split ring cell and he was a what's it called production control specialist, which is basically a solar turbine has parts, but those parts have parts. So, his job was to make sure and order and follow through and get all the parts together in a timely manner.
So that the split ring cell could be built. And when he explained that I was like, I'm a production control specialist. So I'm talking about how to get from basically the shoot to delivery. Now, my methods, with when there was negatives, because I'm very visual, I will forget things if you put it in a drawer.
I probably now could get habituated to a CRM, but back when [00:21:00] I had a, Professional organizer helped me figure things out. We did a system of shelves. And so the top shelf was when I'd done a shoot or a wedding. And the negatives go in there. And all the, info. And the proofs. The next shelf was After the sale, when I started production, and then the third shelf was when print started coming in and books and things like that.
So I could always look up and think, who is on the agenda and where are they? At that time, I was pretty good at tracking the what, but also I left out some of the niceties, like habitual time, well timed thank you notes and gifts and. Some other little details. So I wrote a list, [00:22:00] a checklist, and that checklist could either be on paper for each client, or it could be on a whiteboard, and you do the tasks, let's say on the top, and the client's name on the bottom, and you can check as you go along, or it can be in a CRM, there's probably other ways, but I find when I'm working with clients,
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I would like to share how for those who are. Would like to find a, a, a similar method for everything you just said, but on the digital realm too. There's a way that you could do that. The first I'm thinking with the shelves, right? So the shelves, you could digitize that, so to speak, in multiple ways.
One way is, actually take your computer wallpaper, and in Photoshop, make shelves. Right? So now your desktop looks like shelves behind you. Shelves behind me right now, right? And
Luci Dumas: huh.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: You've got your folders [00:23:00] of where your You know what clients each client folder right on your desktop on the shelf in the different order so you could literally do a Sort of half physical half digital
Luci Dumas: I love
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Method there the other is If you're the type of photographer that has like a working hard drive for each client you have You You could still do the physical shelves, but instead of it being film, it could be the SD cards, it could be the hard drives, and then when you're working on it, you plug it into the computer, and when you're done, you move it to the next part of your shelf, you know, and so on and so on.
so you could digitize the same thing that you're doing, which is a, which, I really like that by the way, it's very, very organized. the other thing was what you mentioned with like a whiteboard. I do that with Apple reminders.and I talked about this in a previous episode. I want to say it was episode [00:24:00] 42, but don't quote me on that.
It's the episode that I did with, Tim Musa and, and Lindsay Coulter from shoot your shot photography podcast. And, Tim and I both use Apple reminders in Kanban form. So similar
Luci Dumas: can, ban.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. So, Kanban is like Kanban is basically, exactly what you're saying. You've got, columns of here's the, or here's the tasks, and then you drop your client into where it is, and then you can reorder things and, and whatnot.
And Apple reminders in the most recent iOS last two iOS versions, Apple reminders, you can add categories. And once you add categories, you can change the view of the reminder. From a regular, like, list view to a Kanban view at side to side and you can drag and drop. So, you can definitely digitize what you have done historically for, for your film work.
and just, I love being able to connect [00:25:00] the two different methods, you know, the, the analog method to the, to the digital method.
Luci Dumas: Right. What I love about a CRM, an actual CRM is like I did a, a big marketing project. It didn't actually turn out the way I hoped it would, but it had a lot of moving parts and a lot of people I needed to connect with and things to send out. So I got a CRM and what was nice about it is once I checked off the where somebody was in the workflow, then I had that master list that said, okay, this, this person needs a phone call.
This person needs to be sent this this. And so I like that, summary. That I couldn't get, you know, when I look on the shelf, I couldn't think, okay, now, where are the rest of those eight by tens or things like that. [00:26:00] And I'm sure at this point, what I would probably do is I would still have the, the bins. I used plastic magazine file folders.
because they can fit up to an eight by ten and lots of other goodies, but I would have each client have their own, memory card that would come right out of my camera. I downloaded and then I'd put that thing right into their bin so that I had the original cause I suspended 200. On film and processing per job.
So a 20, a couple of 20 memory cards from two cameras, you know, pocket change relative to that. And then I, I would file them away, probably when I finish the work, then I'd pop those onto those cards. And then I put all of that in a physical place to find it [00:27:00] later. I used to pull CDs. And, but, you know, I don't see any place to get a CD anymore, but it did save my bacon one time where I couldn't find the digital files on, any of my, hard drives.
And I'd used one where you have a lot of slots and it went bad and you couldn't get the info off it. But I had those CDs and the file from like three or four years ago. So.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. I, I, I can't remember the last time I had A-A-C-D-D-V-D or a Blu-ray. Device in my in my house Years at this point, which is kind of crazy to think about it's still like Not an old technology. It's like it's still very very very new but
Luci Dumas: Yeah, well, I had to find a.my ring light [00:28:00] uses a USB port and there's not that many on my current computer to use on my laptop. There are no traditional USB ports. So, and they're like, Oh, you can use adapters. Okay. Where are my adapters?
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah,
Luci Dumas: So things change.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: let's talk about one area that you're struggling with, in your workflow, and I'd love to hear, if you have a plan to address it as well. you mentioned that you're struggling with delegating tasks. Mm hmm. And I can totally understand that. I think no matter the size of business, it's gotta be, a struggle for everybody to give up something right in the same way that many photographers originally didn't want to give up with, their own editing and their calling. And now, now look, there's so many photographers are outsourcing it, originally to humans.
Now many to, to imagine. so. [00:29:00] Can you talk more about about your task struggles and what your plan is to address it?
Luci Dumas: So currently as a podcaster and a coach. Well, we'll just say I have a workflow with the podcast and finding a virtual assistant and training them to do the things. Oh, I have an editor. I do outsource the editing and the posting, but the social media aspect to get it out. There, has been a challenge I've because I'm not where I can give them, you know, 30 hours a week work.
So eventually. Because I'm using them maybe four hours or five hours a week, they move on to something else or something full time. I've discovered now with AI, there are things that they were doing that I can [00:30:00] easily do. It takes me less time to create, a banner for the YouTube and create the Instagram cover, than sending them all the information and then downloading what they send me back.
So that has shifted. I'm not, so if I was trying to grow my photography business again, I would outsource marketing.I don't, I don't like you've kind of stumped me because I don't have a plan. You know, it's the challenge always when I did weddings and portraits, I always had somebody that could come in a day or two a week for four to five hours and help me with the physical aspects.
Like opening boxes and cutting those negatives and putting them in the bags and writing the things, all the things, but with digital, [00:31:00] I've tried to come up with and train editors and, I have such a refined sense of what I want that I just never, you know, it was just easier to do it. But that was pretty, all the magic that you get.
With, you know, imaging and so AI, I think is a game changer in a lot of things. Like with my podcast show notes, I'll send my notes to a chat GPT, and then I'll totally customize it and I'll ask for five versions. So it is me and it is my voice, but it simplifies things. So, yeah, anyway, I don't know if that answered your question.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, yeah, well so question if you if you were to be relaunching your photography business and You [00:32:00] You said you would outsource marketing. So I wonder, and this is where it could be very helpful for a lot of listeners is, would you be outsourcing to a big marketing agency or like a local marketing agency or just a virtual assistant who can do marketing?
Luci Dumas: I would start with virtual assistant that can do marketing and that understands and also is willing to let me share ideas, that they maybe never even heard of, like doing, Facebook ads, like wanted five super cute toddlers because I want to, upgrade my studio samples and you're going to get a free session, that kind of thing.
And, you know, Or so even now, like I have an online course that is step by step about my sales process. It's a 12 week recording from a group [00:33:00] class, and it's all put together and beautiful. So I would get enough virtual assistant and work with now with AI and figure out a plan to do all the things it takes to get people to sign up for this.
Really valuable course. You don't just put it out there. So yeah, virtual Assistant would would be one place that I would go but we still have to supervise it there's still you know it all the things can be so overwhelming but the more we can we can Put somebody, maybe even I would have somebody not virtual, I would have somebody come here and we would work together and [00:34:00] brainstorm and be like my partner in crime, you know, because I'm better when I'm around people.
I get more accomplished. So, yeah, I still don't know if I've answered your questions, but
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: You have, you have,
Luci Dumas: it is a challenging area.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah.
Luci Dumas: And, like, when I'm doing a portrait session and I'm editing for the final print, I'm even hard on myself trying to do it right, so I let my photo lab do a color correction, a final correction, and send me a test print before I go to print, because I haven't figured out, going from this screen, To an actual, you know, print how to get the tones that I really want.
So,but I did have a guest once that basically said, you know, you got to give up [00:35:00] perfection for, for, success, for achievement. The clients don't care as much as you do is,
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: true,
Luci Dumas: let somebody help you lower your standards a little bit.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, yeah, a little bit, yeah. So, I do think there is a, that line of lowering your standards to make things more efficient for you and more profitable for you. Versus, lowering your standards to a point where you're still doing so much work that the money you're paying doesn't make it worth it.
There's different levels to where you outsource. You could outsource to a company that, that, whatever it might be, right? And whatever task. You could outsource a company that is super cheap and is not, Going to do a great job versus outdoors to do a company that's more expensive and it's going to do a fantastic job and save you time, which in turn saves you a ton of money.[00:36:00]
So, it, yeah, there's, there's such a variety. so you gotta, you gotta tread where, what works best for you.
Luci Dumas: Right. And what I find when people hire a marketer is often it's all about they're thinking social media. For me, the high end photographic client isn't searching on social media. They're getting referrals. They're, they're finding people in other ways. And, something that was explained to me is if someone comes to me from social media, They've maybe looked at eight or ten other photographers.
And so they have an expectation that they think they've done their due diligence. But most of those are very inexpensive, give you all the files. You know, you, if it's me, [00:37:00] I'm giving a luxury full service opportunity. It, it kind of taints the waters. I don't know if that's the right term, where they come thinking it should cost this much because out of those other eight, five of them are under 500.
I'd rather find them at charity events or, something that's been really successful for some of my clients is, is shows like home shows or pet shows where they do a drawing. And it's. They're pre qualified, like, the gal that just had that 8, 000 sale, she did a booth at a, a street fair in the perfect neighborhood for the ideal clients.
And she did a drawing, and it's a place they have a lot of pets in, in the neighborhood. And she got like eight great clients and 20, 000 in sales [00:38:00] in her first couple of months. Thank you. So that, how does that connect to what, what you were saying? Anyway, yes. So the marketing, so honestly hiring somebody who is a coach or a business partner is a part of delegating in a way, because they're giving you ideas that then maybe a virtual assistant and, and you can do the things.
I think a lot of marketers don't know what it is.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: You want it, you want open mind, you want the collaboration, the flexibility, the, the, the idea, motivation, not just pigeonhole to one thing and that's it.
Luci Dumas: Right. Right. One thing that may or may not be right, for our industry and for the niche. so yeah, I don't know how you'd find a marketer that knew exactly what to do [00:39:00] for you, but I'm sure they're out there.
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, yeah, I'm sure they're out there. Luci, this has been, such a great conversation. I love, I love, as somebody who just, Rewind a bit as somebody who dreads the idea of doing sales. I love that you dug so deeply into that. and I'm glad we got to talk about these other things as well.
I know there was so much here for all the listeners to take away from. And, I, I can't wait to share this episode with the entire industry. So thank you for taking the time and chatting with me and sharing all your expertise.
Luci Dumas: Yeah. So I have a opportunity if it's okay. To offer,
Scott Wyden Kivowitz: go ahead.
Luci Dumas: so I can offer eight of your listeners and complimentary, create the business of your dream session. No obligation, no pressure. We take a deep dive into.your dreams, some of the challenges, and then where you might go [00:40:00] next is something that I give you some thoughts about.
So you can go to Lucidumascoaching. com or you can email me at Luci with an I at Lucidumas. com and see if there are some available. I'd love, love, love to support your listeners that might be interested in that. So thanks for. Letting me share that.
Amazing. Yeah, I will be sure to include that in the show notes as well. So that way, First 8 people to take Luci up on that. that's a really good offer, so Go ahead and do that. thank you Luci for sharing that. and I will again link to Luci's podcast as well. I definitely recommend if you're listening to this podcast, you should listen to Luci's, which will be in the show notes as well for you to just click and subscribe.
So thank you, Luci.
Thank you, Scott.
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